[CONAN] Interesting Weapon & Combat Model

[Supplement Four]

Regarding unarmed attacks:
What you do for that?

I don't use the Codex. Ultimately, I think its a neat set of rules that I'd like to try out one day, but I've got Conan RAW tweaked like a fine runnin' muscle car. It works, and I don't want to give that up to try out the Codex.

 

[LucaCherstich]

so we are in the same situation!
I'm really fascinated by the triple statistics (Spears & Shortswords are useful for once!) but do not know wether I'll use it.

 

[Supplement Four]

so we are in the same situation!
I'm really fascinated by the triple statistics (Spears & Shortswords are useful for once!) but do not know wether I'll use it.

Yeah, I like the triple stats too, but I also like the Martial Pool. Not going to use it, but I think it's very cool.

 

[Spectator]

I've been reading the Codex Martialis, which is a d20 supplement that offers a different combat system that is totally compatible with d20 games.

It would be fantastic in the Conan game. I don't think I'm going to use it, sticking with RAW, but that's not because I wasn't damn tempted.

In its simplest terms, each character gets a dice pool of 4 d20's. This is called the character's "Martial Pool". Everything the the character does spends these d20's, and when the character is out of d20's, his actions for the round are complete.

For example, movement costs one die. A character can move up to his speed rating, spending one die from his Martial Pool. If he runs that round, he spends all 4 dice (can do nothing else during the round), moving 4x his Speed (just like in RAW).

The rules use Active Defense, meaning that, in order to defend himself, the character throws a d20 and adds in all his defence modifiers, whether parrying or dodging. If this throw is greater than the attack throw, the attack is either dodged or parried. So, when spending dice from his Martial Pool, the character has to figure how many times he'll have to defend himself that round from blows. When his MP is zero, he can't roll a die for his defense, and he's much, much easier to hit.

So, when playing out the round, the player has to manage his character's resources. He's only got 4 dice. If he moves, that leaves 3 dice for attacks and defensive moves.

A character can also throw all his dice together, blowing his entire wad, but taking the best number from the lot. For example, let's say a character does not have initiative, has 2 HP left, and is about to be attacked by an Ymirsh Frost Giant. He wants to ensure he gets missed when the giant attacks, allowing him to live one more round. When the Ymirsh attacks, the defender throws all 4 d20, taking the highest roll to represent his defense, thereby giving him the best chance at blocking the incoming blow. Of course, this comes at the expense of being able to do anything else during the round. If you think about it, this is akin to Full Defense in RAW.

Pretty neat combat system, huh? Very versatile. You don't know what's coming. You've got to manage your resources.

I think it would make fights extremely interesting. Tactical.

There's lots more you can do with the system. I'm just explaining the highlights here.

I just think its neat.

Man, am I tempted to use it in the game.

Neat concept! But why did the spear lose the reach bonus in the second round? PS I dont have the codex, so don't quote me a page, please. If I were grule, I'd like to keep homeboy a good distance away from me to capitalize on the reach bonus, right?

 

[Supplement Four]

Neat concept! But why did the spear lose the reach bonus in the second round? PS I dont have the codex, so don't quote me a page, please. If I were grule, I'd like to keep homeboy a good distance away from me to capitalize on the reach bonus, right?

The Reach Bonus is simply a bonus to longer weapons on the first attack of the first round. The Speed Bonus is the modifier used throughout most of the combat.

Remember in 1E AD&D where longer weapons were given automatic initiative on the first round and allowed to attack before (d6 initiative was thrown on round 2+)? It's the same concept--a perk of using a longer weapon.

Conan 2E nods its head in this direction with the optional parry defense rule. If a man with a dagger parries a foe with a two-handed greatsword, the dagger man uses a -2 penalty on his parry defense.

When the situation is turned around, and the two-handed guy is being attacked by the dagger man, two handed greatsword dude is +2 to parry.

 

[Spectator]

Hmm to capitalize on the reach bonus, grule would prevent his attacker from closing in, so could you houserule that as long as grule inflicts damage (from at least one of his attack per round) on his opponent he could keep his reach bonus?

This gives the spear ( a hell of a good weapon throughout history) the perk of being utilized in combat with regularity, right? The prob I see is that the one-off reach bonus is good, but not good enough, if you fail to inflict damage then you can use the speed bonus factor as set forth in round two, above.

 

[galloglaich]

Hi guys, I'm the publisher and writer of the Codex Martialis, I was alerted that y'all were discussing the system here and I thought I would introduce myself and see if I could help out with some integration ideas.

I'm glad to see some people looking at Codex for Conan RPG, I am a big fan of the original Robert E Howard Conan novels myself and I always thought it would be a good fit. Someone posted to our forum last year that they were going to try something like this, but I never did get to learn any details.



So first of all, specifically on the issue of reach and speed. I hope you will forgive a somewhat long-winded dissertation

Supplement four already explained the 'Martial Pool' idea where you have four dice to play with each round. That is one part of the system.

The second part is that in the Codex we recognize three range bands in combat, based on those described in the fencing manuals from the early Renaissance. These are Onset, Melee, and Grapple. Onset is the range leading up to where you are close enough to hit and it's where spears have the advantage over swords; melee range (called "krieg" range in German fencing manuals) is where you can hit without taking a step, this is where swords do best; and finally grapple range where weapon defense bonus doesn't count and medium or large sized weapons are less effective, this is where daggers are ideal.

In a fight between a guy with a spear and a guy with a machete, say, the spearman will try to stay at Onset range. This can be done a number of ways, he can "maintain range" by making only two-dice attacks, or only one attack in the round, or he can move back to Onset range by spending a die (one of his 'Martial Pool').

The third part of the combat system which Supplement Four didn't mention yet is the Martial Feats. These are special traits you pick up when you level up (separate from standard Feats) which allow you to specialize your fighting style and take advantage of characteristics of different weapons.

So for example a spear fighter may take the MF Sidestep, which allows him to make a step instead of getting an Attack of Opportunity against for example someone trying to close to Grapple range (very bad for a spearman, great if you have a dagger). Or he can get Distance Fighting, which gives you a free dice for any void (I think that is similar to a Dodge in Conan RPG), or Point Control which gives you a Free Dice in an AoO against anyone attempting to close in to grapple range, or Half Staff which makes his spear more effective for defense at all ranges (by using it like a staff when you are close).

And if you simply have the standard SRD Mobility Feat this gives you the ability to spend an extra dice (Martial Pool) on movement every round, which is very helpful for maintaining range. You use these Martial Feats when you are building up your character to become specialized in different fighting styles, based on real historical fighting techniques from German, Italian, Japanese, Filipino, and Chinese Martial Arts.

As for adapting some of this to Conan RPG, generally in the Codex the rule of thumb we use is to confer a 'Free Dice', an extra die for your die roll and you take the highest roll, rather than a +2 or -3 or what have you, to cut down on the amount of arithmetic and keep the game moving faster. It's also a fun dynamic because it improves the luck. So for example what makes shields very effective in the Codex rules is that they give you a 'Free Dice' every time you spend one or more Dice on Active Defense. Or when dealing with missile weapons, each 25% cover you have gives you an extra 'Free Dice' for Active Defense.

So one really simple way you could give an advantage to longer weapons in Conan RPG is to just give a 'Free Dice' to whoever has the longer weapon in the start of a fight (or for as long as they are at Onset range) and give a 'Free Dice' in subsequent attacks (or when they are at Melee range) for the shorter / faster weapon.




G.

 

[Spectator]

First Off: WELCOME TO OUR HUMBLE FORUM!!!!
I think its really cool to have the authors provide input (our resident Conan expert and writer Vincent Darlaage frequents this forum as well!!!).

I hope you come back in the future and impart your wisdom, criticism (constructive), and wit in this forum.

Secondly: I don't own the Codex, but your presence here now makes me very interested in checking it out, and possibly purchasing it.

Thirdly: I'm very impressed you have thought about the efficacy of the spear and incorporated it into your rule system.

All in all, THANKS, domo origato, & Merci beaucoup!!!

 

[Supplement Four]

Secondly: I don't own the Codex, but your presence here now makes me very interested in checking it out, and possibly purchasing it.

Spec, I bought all three of the Codex books. I haven't read them in detail, but I can tell you that they're well worth the purchase price. I think they're like $24 bucks or so (don't remember the exact price, but you can get them as a bundle at RPG Now and Drive Through RPG).

I recommend them. Even if you don't use them in your Conan game, they're fantastic "food for thought" reading.

 

[Supplement Four]

These are Onset, Melee, and Grapple. Onset is the range leading up to where you are close enough to hit and it's where spears have the advantage over swords; melee range (called "krieg" range in German fencing manuals) is where you can hit without taking a step, this is where swords do best; and finally grapple range where weapon defense bonus doesn't count and medium or large sized weapons are less effective, this is where daggers are ideal.

I love this idea, but how does it convert to the Conan game? (Or, even a standard d20 game?)

If you've got a 5' grid, Grapple Range is inside the same square as your foe. That's reasonable, eh?

Melee Range is the standard 5' range--in the square adjacent to your foe.

Where is Onset range? Is this the "reach" range, 10' from your foe, two squares away?

 

[Supplement Four]

The third part of the combat system which Supplement Four didn't mention yet is the Martial Feats.

The main reason I bought the Codex bundle was to read the Martial Feats.

From what I've read, the Martial Feats are a mixture of Conan Combat Maneuvers and normal Feats. The Codex suggests that a character get one Martial Feat per BAB. If you're into simulationist gaming, like I am, this is some pretty good stuff to add to your game.

One thing I have to reason out, though, is how to employ the Martial Feats if I'm not using the Codex Martial Pool.

For example, the Danse De La Rue martial feat has prerequisites of Movement 20' and DEX 13+.

OK, no problem there.

Then the description says: You can spend two dice to make a long-range unarmed attack at Onset range, with a reach bonus of +4 To Hit and a minimum damage of 1-4. To make the kick you must be at onset range and you must have at least two MP remaining. Iron-shot or spiked boots or shoes confer +1 damage. This MF does work with the Bind and Batter MF, Morstrosse MF, and the Sucker Punch MF. The +4 reach bonus also applies to init roles.

I assume that last word was supposed to be "rolls".

So, my question would be: How do I convert this to a d20 Conan game?

Since you're using two of your 4 dice, would that mean it's a Full-round action?

If it is a Full-round action, then how can you combine it ith the other MFs mentioned?

And, I'm not sure where "Onset Range" is (waiting on an answer above).

Maybe "Onset Range" refers to the first attack of the combat?

 

[LucaCherstich]

I love this idea, but how does it convert to the Conan game? (Or, even a standard d20 game?)

If you've got a 5' grid, Grapple Range is inside the same square as your foe. That's reasonable, eh?

Melee Range is the standard 5' range--in the square adjacent to your foe.

Where is Onset range? Is this the "reach" range, 10' from your foe, two squares away?

If we do not want to make heavy modification we cannt make "Onset" at a reach range.
The Bardiche or the Hunting Spear ("spear" in the codex) have very good onset statistics in the Codex, but in Conan rules they do not have reach!

A possible mod (but not so sure if it works in reality): we could say that each sq represent 2.5 ft rather than 5 ft.
SO:
Same square: Grapple
1st square (2.5 ft) from the opponent: Melee (Good for Swords & Axes)
2nd square (5 ft) from the opponent: Onset (Good for Spears & Bardiches)
3rd-4th squares (7.5-10 ft) from the opponent: Onset for 10 ft Reach weapons (Good for Warspears).
5th-6th squares (12.5-15 ft) from the opponent: Onset for 15 ft Reach weapons (Do they exist??).
7th-8th squares (17.5-20 ft) from the opponent: Onset for 20 ft Reach weapons (Good for Pikes).

If you use this Square configuration, you should allow PCs to transform the one free 5 ft step in one or two free 2.5 ft steps

 

[Supplement Four]

I definitely don't want to switch to 2.5' squares. I think that would be more trouble that it would be worth.

Onset Range could = The First Attack.

But, we already kinda slap a bonus on the first attack as the enemy is flat-footed. Of course, that's with all weapons, not just long ones.

And, how would someone maintain range at Onset range if that were the case?

If the character in a square can be at both Onset and Melee range, it becomes fussy to keep track of which range they are at.

I hope we hear back from galloglaich. I'd like to get his thoughts on this.

 

[Supplement Four]

We actually have many of the concepts from the Codex already in the Conan game--implemented in a more general way.

The Codex encourages the use of Active Parry (easily done in Conan), and the Codex has its own weapon penetration/armor absorbing damage system. Conan, of course, has that.

What's left?

Where the Codex has the Martial Feats, Conan has a lot of combat maneuvers that are sometimes very similar (Feint is a good example).

Now, how about the three weapon mods for Onset and Melee Range and Defense?

It's not as crunchy, but Conan coverse this with the Optional Parry Rule based on weapon size.

Under that rule, longer weapons always have an advante to hit since a foe with a smaller weapon is getting a -1 or a -2 to his defense. And, the character with the longer weapon gets a Parry bonus of +1 or +2 if his weapon.

So, the longer weapon thing is addressed.

The only thing that I can see that is not really already addressed in the Conan game is weapon speed.

And, I'd like to see that put into the game in a simple, easy-to-use fashion.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Thus far there is no simple way to use weapon speed without seriously changing the system. The solutions thus far:

1) Augmenting Initiative I loved that in AD&D 2e but I also hated it since you are obliged to declare what you want to do at the beginning.

2) Changing Square scale is the only simple solution if you want to use the Codex triple weapon stats and, more importantly, visually record who is in the range of what and which range.
However, I admit that changing the scale could bring some conceptual problems...but not if we challenge those concepts!
But we really do not have to change miniature bases, just the concept of bases.
In normal scale a medium creature (Man) is inside a 5 ft space, and he is quite comfortable in it (I'm a tall man, but my shoulders, are definitively shorter than 5ft !), those 5ft square represent a Man + his Melee Range!!
Changing scales you can occupty a 2.5 ft square and all the squares around represent your melee range.

3) Not changing the Conan System and not using the Codex, but let's create more New Manoeuvres. I know this does not solve all the problems, but I created a new one for double light weapons close combat.
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=47338
Maybe we could create stuff like that for other kind of weapons.

4) your Weapon Speed rules in the other topic. But still, they do not use the Codex triple stats.

 

[galloglaich]

These are Onset, Melee, and Grapple. Onset is the range leading up to where you are close enough to hit and it's where spears have the advantage over swords; melee range (called "krieg" range in German fencing manuals) is where you can hit without taking a step, this is where swords do best; and finally grapple range where weapon defense bonus doesn't count and medium or large sized weapons are less effective, this is where daggers are ideal.

I love this idea, but how does it convert to the Conan game? (Or, even a standard d20 game?)

If you've got a 5' grid, Grapple Range is inside the same square as your foe. That's reasonable, eh?

Melee Range is the standard 5' range--in the square adjacent to your foe.

Where is Onset range? Is this the "reach" range, 10' from your foe, two squares away?

In my own campaign we don't use miniatures or a grid, so you'll have to bear with me a bit here because I'm not very familiar with using the grid. The Codex is designed to rely on descriptions and to remain fast paced, and all three of these range categories are supposed to take place within the normal 5' squares used by default in the SRD. I could have made rules for moving around on the grid (because in a real fight distances can go out much farther temporarily as you are circling etc.) but the Codex is designed to be more abstract, intentionally not too detailed (which is why we didn't do hit-locations for example).

But the way we handle range in a fight is more simple. Yes the first attack is (almost) always at Onset range. If both parties have relatively short weapons they typically remain at melee range from that point onward. If one fighter has a longer weapon, he or she will want to go back to Onset range and his opponent (or the DM) will want to stay close. So between the two combatants it's usually easy to remember what range they are at. So the guy with the spear will remember he needs to spend a point to move back out of range, the other guy will keep him honest.

Grapple range is easy to remember because it triggers an AoO to enter grapple range.


Now if you aren't using the Martial Pool this gets a bit more difficult probably. The whole move action, full action, etc. of 3X SRD canon seems complex to me, though I suppose you could as suggested just change to grid to 2.5 foot.

Reach in the Codex rules should not be confused for a 'Reach' (i.e. 10' reach) weapon in the SRD; we still support that rule for certain weapons but it is a different concept. There are actually some Martial Feats (for example 'Slip-Thrust') which allow you to take advantage of that (attack from outside of normal range)


I think a Dodge in Conan rules is probably similar to a Void in the Codex. With a Void, you make an Active Defense roll but can't use your weapons defense value*. There are MF which enhance this like distance fighting. If you successfully pull of a void there are more MF which allow you to get your opponent, like Nachriesen (Travelling after) which is a standard technique in both German and Japanese fencing.

I also think the way we deal with armor might be good in Conan RPG. In the Codex armor has a coverage rating (2-10) and a Damage Reduction value. You can either try to go around or through armor. Piercing and blunt attacks have more luck going through armor, special armor-piercing weapons like awl-pikes and war-picks do best of all. But it effects your strategy and it's nice to have both options. You can also ablate some types of armor.

Same goes for shields. Shields give you a Free Dice on defense but historically most Shields were fairly flimsy, and you can hack them to pieces. This can make for pretty dramatic fights.

Even if you don't use the Martial Pool (though you should! ) I recommend the mechanic of the 'Free Dice' (roll two dice and keep the higher number) conferred in different situations. This is a very good way to replace the equivalent of a +4 die roll bonus; players like it because it reduces the likelihood of a fumble or a very low roll, and it makes the fight a bit more dynamic.

G.


*I'd also like to add that the defensive value of a weapon is not just based on it's ability to parry. The threat of a counter-attack is as much a part of it (particularly for a weapon like a Spear or a Halberd)

 

[galloglaich]

1) Augmenting Initiative I loved that in AD&D 2e but I also hated it since you are obliged to declare what you want to do at the beginning.

We give the guy with the larger weapon (or a missile weapon) a 'Free Dice' on initiative rolls.

G.

 

[galloglaich]

Where the Codex has the Martial Feats, Conan has a lot of combat maneuvers that are sometimes very similar (Feint is a good example).

Feint is similar, but unless Conan RPG has changed a lot since the last time I looked at it there are a lot more different types of Martial Feats in the Codex, based on actual Martial Arts techniques, which would bring a great deal of cinematic dynamism to fights I think. But most of them would be fairly difficult to implement without the Martial Pool or at least the Free Dice mechanic.

G.

 

[LucaCherstich]

We give the guy with the larger weapon (or a missile weapon) a 'Free Dice' on initiative rolls.

G.

But what if he does not uses that weapon, even if he got an Initiative bonus for that weapon?
What if he does something completely crazy or runs away or bull-rushes an enemy?
I really hate to declare what I do at the beginnig.
When the Initiative Count reaches you, you decide what to do according to what happens.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Even if you don't use the Martial Pool (though you should! ) I recommend the mechanic of the 'Free Dice' (roll two dice and keep the higher number) conferred in different situations. This is a very good way to replace the equivalent of a +4 die roll bonus; players like it because it reduces the likelihood of a fumble or a very low roll, and it makes the fight a bit more dynamic.

G.

OK, maybe you are right about attacks, but in Conan you cannot do that for Parries and Dodges which are fixed values, not modifiable by a roll