[CONAN] Interesting Weapon & Combat Model

[Supplement Four]

I've been reading the Codex Martialis, which is a d20 supplement that offers a different combat system that is totally compatible with d20 games.

It would be fantastic in the Conan game. I don't think I'm going to use it, sticking with RAW, but that's not because I wasn't damn tempted.

In its simplest terms, each character gets a dice pool of 4 d20's. This is called the character's "Martial Pool". Everything the the character does spends these d20's, and when the character is out of d20's, his actions for the round are complete.

For example, movement costs one die. A character can move up to his speed rating, spending one die from his Martial Pool. If he runs that round, he spends all 4 dice (can do nothing else during the round), moving 4x his Speed (just like in RAW).

The rules use Active Defense, meaning that, in order to defend himself, the character throws a d20 and adds in all his defence modifiers, whether parrying or dodging. If this throw is greater than the attack throw, the attack is either dodged or parried. So, when spending dice from his Martial Pool, the character has to figure how many times he'll have to defend himself that round from blows. When his MP is zero, he can't roll a die for his defense, and he's much, much easier to hit.

So, when playing out the round, the player has to manage his character's resources. He's only got 4 dice. If he moves, that leaves 3 dice for attacks and defensive moves.

A character can also throw all his dice together, blowing his entire wad, but taking the best number from the lot. For example, let's say a character does not have initiative, has 2 HP left, and is about to be attacked by an Ymirsh Frost Giant. He wants to ensure he gets missed when the giant attacks, allowing him to live one more round. When the Ymirsh attacks, the defender throws all 4 d20, taking the highest roll to represent his defense, thereby giving him the best chance at blocking the incoming blow. Of course, this comes at the expense of being able to do anything else during the round. If you think about it, this is akin to Full Defense in RAW.

Pretty neat combat system, huh? Very versatile. You don't know what's coming. You've got to manage your resources.

I think it would make fights extremely interesting. Tactical.

There's lots more you can do with the system. I'm just explaining the highlights here.

I just think its neat.

Man, am I tempted to use it in the game.

 

[Supplement Four]

The Codex brings to d20 a lot of things that aren't in normal d20 games but are already in Conan. For example, if you're playing D&D, you can use the Codex to bring in Finesse combat, where a character can avoid armor, making a type of called shot to strike at a character's weak points. It changes armor so that it absorbs damage rather than make a character harder to hit. And, there's several other rules that, if you play Conan, you'll recognize, but if you only play D&D, you might want to bring into your game.

I'm sticking with the Conan versions of these things.

One thing I do like about the Codex, though, is that is recognizes weapon speed. Some weapons are quicker and easier/quicker/faster to weild in combat. Other weapons have a long reach that give the user of that weapon a short-loved advantage at the beginning of combat.

I like this because it makes weapon selection a more thoughtful process.

How this is implemented mechanically is that each weapon is given four new values: Modifiers for Reach, Speed, and Defense. Don't confuse this "Reach" with "Reach" weapons in Conan. "Reach" here just means a longer weapon.

You use the Reach modifier on the very first attack of the combat--the first time that weapon is used. This gives long weapons, like a spear, an advantage over something like an arming sword.

After the first time the weapon is used, the Speed modifier is used for the rest of the combat. This gives smaller, lighter weapons an advantage over bigger, bulkier weaons.

But, the big, bulky weapons aren't to be left out! Those weapons have big defense modifiers. It's hard to get in there and cut a guy swinging a two-handed sword at you if you only have a dagger in your hand!




For example, a Hunting Spear has these mods

Reach +8
Speed +0
Defence +2

And an Arming Sword has these

Reach +3
Speed +3
Defence +3



Thus, if Cyrus the Aquilonian, with initiative, uses an arming sword to attack Grule the Pict, who is using a hunting spear....

Cyrus would get +3 on his first attack.
Grule would get +2 to defend that blow.
(So, Cyrus, in effect, gets a +1 to hit Grule with his arming sword.)

A Hunting Spear is a decently long weapon, and the bonus shows that. When it's Grule's turn to act...

Grule will get +8 to hit Cyrus
Cyrus will get +3 to his defense.
(In effect, Grule is getting a +5 to hit on that first round)



But, on the second round, things change in favor of the arming sword...

Cyrus get a +3 to attack.
Grule gets his +2 to defense.

Then

Grule gets +0 to attack.
Cyrus gets +3 to defense.






See what this brings to the game? If you're the type of fighter who can kill in one blow, then you want to use a long weapon with a heavy reach bonus. But, all of a sudden, this combat system makes using a knife or a dagger a much more dangerous proposition than before--since the weapon may have a better bonus than a heavier, more unweildly weapon, and hit more often.

That's pretty neat, huh?



And, before you start wondering about how much time it will take you to conert for your Conan game--it won't take long at all becaus one of the Codex supplements focuses on weapons. You just transplant to the numbers to your Conan weapons. No work at all. :wink:

 

[LucaCherstich]

It looks interesting..but I have to think about it.
It makes things slightly slower, at least at the beginning.
What about Defence bonuses?
Do you add them just to Parry or also to Dodge?
It is reasonable you use them just for parrying, since you do not need a weapon to dodge.
If so, it will become A LOT EASIER to hit a dodging Character than to hit a Parrying Character.

 

[LucaCherstich]

I gave it some thoughts.
These rules look interesting but if you want to mix them with Conan we must really think about them in order to make them working properly.

I do not want to waste time with the whole complicated system (which would completely change the Conan rpg system).
However, the new 3 statistics for weapons are definitivelt fascinating (although they need some work to understand which Conan Weapon is what...).
This rule, finally, makes sense to the use of light weapons (bad at the beginning, but very useful in later combat).
Basically speaking, the whole system gives a few bonuses to attack & Defence which raises the rols by 1-4 points.
If we want to use them, we must be sure that all Conan rpg combat option are influenced by those bonuses, otherwise we do not get a balanced system.
I'm speaking especially of Shields & Dodges.


DODGE
You cannot had the Defence bonus from a weapon to Dodge, those bonuses in Codex Martialis were designed to represent kind of parries, not dodges.
To make things square in Conan rpg between Dodgers (who do not receive Bonus) & Parriers (who receive the bonus) you should allow Dodgers to get double their Dex bonus.

SHIELDS
I've still to think about a solution for Shields...who want a buckler if a cutlass already gives you a +4 to parry and it is so much better for killing?
Possibly you should raise all shields' bonuses to parry by at least +2 to make them useful.

 

[Supplement Four]

It looks interesting..but I have to think about it.
It makes things slightly slower, at least at the beginning.

I'm not sure I'll use them either, but the rules are worth thinking about.

If you're talking about the weapon mods, you're just just talking about adding in a modifier to attack and defense rolls. Shouldn't be too hard.



An alternative is to create a big cross-reference sheet for the GM only. If he sees an NPC with a hunting spear combat a PC with an arming sword, then he cross-references them, sees the modifier (this would be a "net" modifier), and he tells the players to use it when appropriate.

There would be two cross-reference sheets. One for the initial attack and one for the rest of combat.

For example, cross referencing the two weapons, he'll see that a hunting spear attacking an arming sword for the first time gets a +5 modifier.

Then, it's -3 to hit for the rest of the combat.

The work would be in creating these cross-reference charts. But, once it's done, it's done. You'd take the Conan core rule book and Tito's, list all the weapons along the side and top, then fill in the net modifiers where they cross-reference.

Then, only the GM uses this. Players aren't bothered with it. The GM simply tells them their modifier when playing.

What about Defence bonuses?
Do you add them just to Parry or also to Dodge?

If someone is dodging, they get a flat +8 to defense, iirc. This way, a Dodge is still a pretty good defense, but there are some weapons that Dodge is less effective against.

 

[Supplement Four]

To make things square in Conan rpg between Dodgers (who do not receive Bonus) & Parriers (who receive the bonus) you should allow Dodgers to get double their Dex bonus.

As I said above, if you Dodge, you get a flat +8 bonus in the Codex. The max bonus on any of the stats is +/- 9. So, that's pretty good.

I like this makes some weapons more effective against dodging enemies than others.

SHIELDS

I don't think anything else about the Conan game needs to change. You would use Shields normally. Just add in the new modifiers for weapons.

 

[LucaCherstich]

I do not know.
I always hated Rolemaster big tables.
If I use these rules I prefer to note the modifiers at the begininng on character sheet.

Regarding Dodge: +8 seems too much for me! Double Dex modifiers is much better: it makes Dodge more convenient for some kinds of PCs than others

Shields: You definitively should so something for shields. You should increase thei Parry bonus, otherwise they are useless. How can it be that a "Iron Bound Staff" give +5 to Parry Defence...while a Large Shield gives only +4?
This is crazy!
You should raise all the Conan shield bonuses to parry of at least +2 or +3 (so Large Shield become +6 or +7) if you use this system!!!!

 

[Supplement Four]

Gotta disagree with you, Luca.

I'm not going to use these rules, but if I were, I think the modifiers do a good job of canceling each other out. If you add an attack bonus, you're getting a defense bonus, too. And, the +8 to Dodge seems about right because you don't want to make Dodge inferior to Parrying.

If you don't want to do that, then just add the weapon Defense bonus to the Dodge, too.



I don't think anything needs to be done to Shields. Just use their same bonus.

 

[LucaCherstich]

I have some more reading on Codex Martialis.

Shields:
Changed idea! Maybe you are right, we should not raise the shield bonuses. Usuallly one uses a one-handed weapon + shield, so the toal bonus is already quite hight.
I still have doubts why a long staff should have a +5 parry bonus vs large shield only +4 parry...but you usually use the staff by itself, without a shield.

Dodge
Maybe you are right if you compare that +8 to a shield+weapon parry bonus (which could be nearly similar)....but I have to think about it.

 

[LucaCherstich]

I had some further thinking.
The weapon parry bonus varies from weapon to weapon.
However, what is varying between Dodges? Physical capabilities, nothing else!
It is unfair to give the same +8 to dodge to both Bruce Lee and Arnie!
So what's the solution?
Here is my solution: give +4 instead than +8, but adding the Dex bonus TWICE.
And what about unarmed parry?

So here is my proposal:

WEAPON PARRY:
10 + Class Mod + Str Mod + Weapon Mod + Shield Mod

DODGE
10 + Class Mod + Dex Mod +4 + Dex Mod (again).

UNARMED PARRY
10 + Class Mod + Str Mod + Dex Mod (-4, UNLESS one has Improved Unarmed combat)

 

[Supplement Four]

Here is my solution: give +4 instead than +8, but adding the Dex bonus TWICE.

What happens if he has a DEX 11?

What happens if he has DEX 9?

 

[LucaCherstich]

nothing.
He is just a very bad dodger (much better if you parry!).
JUts like if you have a wonderful +5 bonus, you get +10.
Parry varies greatly according weapons.
Dodge should vary according to the body dex.

 

[Supplement Four]

Dodge should vary according to the body dex.

Not if you consider Dodge as one type of defense. Two people with Spears have the same defense number. Two people with daggers have the same defense number. Two people with scimtars have the same defense number. Why not two people who are Dodging have the same +8 modifier?

And, remember, this is just a modifier. The +8 is added to the Dodger's other Dodge modifiers, that will usually be different from other people.

 

[LucaCherstich]

In your system the Parry has a variable modifier (weapon mod) but not the dodge!
How can tou decide what is that variable mod, if not making the physical details (Dex) more importants?

Well, with weapon parry there is already a "personal" variable modifier (Str) + another variable modifier i.e. weapon mod + another variable modifier i.e. shield mod.

WIth Dodge I use the personal Mod twice which means:
"personal" variable modifier (Dex) +"personal" variable modifier (Dex) +4

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, with weapon parry there is already a "personal" modifier (Str) + weapon mod.
WIth Dodge I use the personal Mod twice (Dex mod + Dex Mod +4)

With weapon parry, the personal modifier is STR, then add in the weapon mod.

With Dodging, the personal modifier is DEX, and think of the +8 as the weapon modifier.

 

[LucaCherstich]

I know we already got Str & Dex.
But my point was about the second variable parry modifier (weapon).
Why making that second bonus Fixed to +8 for dodges?
In dodges we should make bodies (Dex) that variable mod.
If you add a +8 FOR FREE, it will be more meaningful than the first Dex mod!
So my solution was to keep a part fixed (+4) but allowing the Dex bonsu to be added twice: so Dex is moroe meaningful in statistical terms than a fixed, abstract +8.

 

[Supplement Four]

Why making that second bonus Fixed to +8 for dodges?

The same reason that two-handed halberds have a fixed bonus of +3...that a battle axe has a fixed bonus of +2...that a quarterstaff has a fixed bonus of +5.

Each weapon has a personal component and a fixed component. For the Arming Sword, the personal component is STR modifier and the fixed component is +3. For Dodging, your personal component is DEX modifier and the fixed modifier is +8.

So my solution was to keep a part fixed (+4) but allowing the Dex bonsu to be added twice: so Dex is moroe meaningful in statistical terms than a fixed, abstract +8.

I didn't make it up. It's in the Codex rules, page 16, under Passive Defense.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Well, but those rules are, in any case, different since they do not include Dodge/parry bonuses according to class but they add the BAB....
...furthermore with "passive" defense, the author of Codex MArtialis does not explicitely say "dodge"....and he even adds the shield bonus!

The point is that we should adapt those rules to Conan and the Conan feeling, not trying to uncrtitically copy & paste.
I try to make a +4 and a second Dex mod, just to make Dex more meaningful in games terms than giving a simple +8.
Weapon type influences parry, body type influences dodge.

But that's just my view.
In any case, everybody will do as he pleases...
.....it is just too crazy, to me, to give a free +8 to somebody dodging while a large shield gives only a +4...... I just wonder why the Leonidas & the Spartans at the Thermopilae did not throw away those large shields (+4) and start dodging ( +8 ) Persian spears!!!...
....Possibly that's the reason why they all died....

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, but those rules are, in any case, different since they do not include Dodge/parry bonuses according to class but they add the BAB....
...furthermore with "passive" defense, the author of Codex MArtialis does not explicitely say "dodge"....and he even adds the shield bonus!

I'm thinking in terms of Active Defense, since I use that in my game. But still, I'd go with the +8 plus normal DEX bonuses for Dogde (instead of teh BAB rule in the Codex).

It's your game though. Do what you think is correct.

 

[LucaCherstich]

everybody does as he likes...but think about the above mentioned Spartans or any Classical or Hellenistic Greek Hoplite (large shield + spear):

Parry adds to Str, Dodge adds to Dex, so in both cases we already get a "personal" modifier....but let's compare "non personal" modifiers:

PARRY BONUS: +6 = one-handed spear (bonus +2) + large shield (bonus +4).

DODGE BONUS: +8 = for free!

Why the mighty armies of Alexander the Great did not throw away those heavy shields and started dodging Persian and Indian spears as wild dancers?
If we calculate the parry bonus with the most diffused sword in Hellenistic Greece (kopis, parry bonus +1) + shield you get +5 bonus.
Dodge is still so much better!
I think it is unfair.

I agree that in both cases (parry and dodge) you add a personal modifier (Str or Dex) but regarding dodges, that does not change too much since the +8 Dodge bonus is high and more influent than ANY Dex bonus the character has!
It is clear that giving a free +8 to dodge is too much, it makes dodge so much easier than parry!
But you do as you like.

Another thought: the only thing that coudl modify you dodging skill is an ecumbering armour: armour limits Dex bonsu to dodge, so calculating the Dex bonus twice +4 makes armour much more meaningful in dodges, since with that +8 it does not really matter if you have low dex due to armour.


Passive defense:
Furthermore, regarding the concept of "active " and "passive" defense, you should admit that EVERYBODY playing Conan d20 is using a kind of passive defense.
According to the Codex rules active defense is when you roll a d20; passive is when you do not roll.
It is not a difference between dodge & parry.
We are speaking of a completely different system from Conan d20, we have to find ways to fit to teh Conan system without too much revolution.

Regarding unarmed attacks:
What you do for that?
Does an unarmed attack have the triple statistics of weapon?
Should we give higher statistics to martial artists?