Computer/Cyber/Bio Technology in the new Traveller setting?

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Maybe it's just me, but lets look at the tables from the OTHER side.

ASSUME that the prices listed are for the TL15 society.

So, the most current, shiny new computer is going to be the most expensive and as you accept a lower tech level (with correspondingly less capability) then the cost goes DOWN.

So, while it seems like the costs go up as TL increases, it is actually that the cost goes down as you accept more obsolete equipment.

Does that model make sense?

 

[-Daniel-]

Nope, you miss the point I'm making *again*.

Well then I guess I will just have to keep using the system as written and hope someday to figure it out on my own.

Thanks for trying though.

Daniel

 

[-Daniel-]

Maybe it's just me, but lets look at the tables from the OTHER side.

ASSUME that the prices listed are for the TL15 society.

So, the most current, shiny new computer is going to be the most expensive and as you accept a lower tech level (with correspondingly less capability) then the cost goes DOWN.

So, while it seems like the costs go up as TL increases, it is actually that the cost goes down as you accept more obsolete equipment.

Does that model make sense?

Seems logical and sound to me.

Daniel

 

[Infojunky]

Maybe it's just me, but lets look at the tables from the OTHER side.

ASSUME that the prices listed are for the TL15 society.

So, the most current, shiny new computer is going to be the most expensive and as you accept a lower tech level (with correspondingly less capability) then the cost goes DOWN.

So, while it seems like the costs go up as TL increases, it is actually that the cost goes down as you accept more obsolete equipment.

Does that model make sense?

Seems logical and sound to me.

THat is what the model appears to be to me also, though we must remember that this is a game written by historians and enthusiasts not Economists.

 

[aspqrz]

Thats why the second Imp crashed. They could not figure out that 200x was better than 50%. Of course I wonder how such math deprived folks could manage jump calculations.

Umm.

Ah.

Volume is almost always better than price gouging.

Selling *lots* of TL/15 computers to that TL/6 world will actually get you more money, and on an ongoing basis, than selling one at a 600x markup.

Think TCO. Programs. Spares. Consumables. Flow on effects to the local economy which expands it, boosts per capita GDP and, therefore, increases demand *for* those TL15 computers.

There are a lot of reasons why Toshiba, say, doesn't sell top of the line laptops that normally sell in the west for, say, c. US $5000, in Somalia, say, for US$3 million (x600 markup).

I think its safe to say that the Rule of Man and the follow-on Imperia have a clew as to this.

Phil

 

[aspqrz]

Maybe it's just me, but lets look at the tables from the OTHER side.

ASSUME that the prices listed are for the TL15 society.

So, the most current, shiny new computer is going to be the most expensive and as you accept a lower tech level (with correspondingly less capability) then the cost goes DOWN.

So, while it seems like the costs go up as TL increases, it is actually that the cost goes down as you accept more obsolete equipment.

Does that model make sense?

Then that needs to be stated explicitly.

And, no, it doesn't really explain things.

Take that TL15 computer @ 5000 Cr.

1/2 kilo, Computer/5 power.

Look at the TL7 computer.

50 Cr. Computer/0.

Which makes sense, sorta, except that the computer masses 10 kg.

It should by rights, mass much less than 0.5 kg, since ... less than one fifth as powerful, so, perhaps, 20% of the mass? 0.1 kg or less?

Or take Radios. A TL13 Radio masses 1 kilo and has 5000 klick range and counts as Computer/1 (which I seriously doubt it would ... based on the way convergence is going, its more likely to be Computer/3, one step less than a regular TL13 computer).

A TL5 Radio has a 5 klick range (these people don't know anything about radios ... I don't know much, but even I know a 20 kilo TL5 radio has a longer range than this ... Army Reserve Signaller, 74-75, y'see) and masses 20 kilos.

OK. Right. Pull the other one, it plays "Jingle Bells."

If the TL5 radio really represented a downrated TL13 one, then it would mass much less for that nominal 5 klick range ... probably the size of a Commdot, in fact.

Cuts both ways, y'see. If you make the assumptions you have you have to change *all* the assumptions.

Phil
======================================
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au[/i]

 

[-Daniel-]

Umm.

Ah.

Volume is almost always better than price gouging.

Selling *lots* of TL/15 computers to that TL/6 world will actually get you more money, and on an ongoing basis, than selling one at a 600x markup.

Think TCO. Programs. Spares. Consumables. Flow on effects to the local economy which expands it, boosts per capita GDP and, therefore, increases demand *for* those TL15 computers.

There are a lot of reasons why Toshiba, say, doesn't sell top of the line laptops that normally sell in the west for, say, c. US $5000, in Somalia, say, for US$3 million (x600 markup).

I think its safe to say that the Rule of Man and the follow-on Imperia have a clew as to this.

Phil

Phil, you are a hoot. Love the example. :lol:

Daniel

 

[Infojunky]

What was this thread about again?

The economics of the Imperium has used up a lot of bandwidth over the last 20 years. People arguing how the universe works base on some off the cuff rules meant to rule one specific game not control entire fiction universes. Heck some variation of this thread is going on on the TML, COTI and Gurps:Traveller forums as we speak (ahm... Write).

By and large Tech Levels are about local infrastructures, not what the local people know. Basic principle all knowledge what's to be free, it's the hardware that costs.

So where were we?

 

[zozotroll]

Haveing fun yakking about Traveller?

 

[SSWarlock]

Haveing fun yakking about Traveller?

Heh. Yeah.

In keeping with the original title of this thread, one of the many things I like about MongTrav is the recognition that cybernetics and bionics have the downsides of 1) possibly not be able to be fixed if damaged and 2) interfering with a doctor trying to patch up the wounded character if the augmentation is of a higher TL than that of the doctor's world.

 

[Infojunky]

Have to give them the point for seamlessly putting in limitations on augmentations that are in line with the setting, instead of barely disguised meta-game device to control the players options.

 

[aspqrz]

By and large Tech Levels are about local infrastructures, not what the local people know. Basic principle all knowledge what's to be free, it's the hardware that costs.

Indeed.

So, if its all about knowledge, why are Assault Rifles TL7 ... "can reach orbit reliably and has telecommunications satellites. Computers become common ..."

The first assault rifle was the German MP-43, which came out in ... shock, horror ... 1943. When there were no means of reaching orbit, reliably or otherwise, and computers certainly weren't common.

That's TL4, possibly (barely) TL5 by Traveller standards.

The Autorifle, TL6? Atomics era? Right.

BAR, 1917 (and earlier ones, names of which elude me at the moment). Actually late TL4, perhaps early, very early, TL5.

Rifle (by which they mean metal cartridge firer from box magazine), TL5? Mid 20th century?

Lee Metford, precursor to Lee Enfield, 1888. Actually TL4.

They would have been possible earlier, but the problems with metal cartridges had not yet been worked out.

And, of course, the AK-47 (or Sten SMG, no SMGs in MongTrav) are actually *easier* and *cheaper* to manufacture than SMLEs, BARs or the like as they use cheap stampings instead of precision machining.

Harry Harrison's "A Rebel in Time" is only a bit out in left field.

If the Imperium is all about *knowledge*, then there is no reason why any sort of metal cartridge firing firearm couldn't be made at early TL4 and probably no reason why they can't be made at late TL3.

These are old assumptions that, yes, have atrracted much argument over the years ... because the assumptions ... make no sense whatsoever in either real world terms or if you assume that the local TL is all about local infrastructures.

There was a real chance for some of these basically minor problems to be fixed in MongTrav, but the assumption has continued, it seems, despite your comment, to be that TLs actually mean what a world has and what it knows ... or, well, they never actually thought about it at all despite all the words that have been exchanged about the matter over the years.

I mean, really, I don't think that they'd actually crucify Gareth if he'd changed things to reflect objective reality.

Or maybe "they" would have? :wink:

Phil
======================================
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[Golan2072]

So, if its all about knowledge, why are Assault Rifles TL7 ... "can reach orbit reliably and has telecommunications satellites. Computers become common ..."

The first assault rifle was the German MP-43, which came out in ... shock, horror ... 1943. When there were no means of reaching orbit, reliably or otherwise, and computers certainly weren't common.

That's TL4, possibly (barely) TL5 by Traveller standards.

The Autorifle, TL6? Atomics era? Right.

BAR, 1917 (and earlier ones, names of which elude me at the moment). Actually late TL4, perhaps early, very early, TL5.

Rifle (by which they mean metal cartridge firer from box magazine), TL5? Mid 20th century?

Lee Metford, precursor to Lee Enfield, 1888. Actually TL4.

They would have been possible earlier, but the problems with metal cartridges had not yet been worked out.

And, of course, the AK-47 (or Sten SMG, no SMGs in MongTrav) are actually *easier* and *cheaper* to manufacture than SMLEs, BARs or the like as they use cheap stampings instead of precision machining.

Assault Rifles should be TL6 - they were invented 2 years before the first nuke and rose to prominence (AK47) two years after it. Semi-automatic rifles are probably TL5, with lever-action ones being TL4. SMGs should be TL5 (circa WWI) as well.

 

[FallingPhoenix]

As I understood it, the prices listed for various tech level items would be what you'd pay (and what they'd weigh) if you were to buy them on a planet with that tech level. Which, now that I think about it, does give some credence to the argument that it would cost as much for a TL 6 item on a TL 6 world as it would for a similar TL 15 item on a TL 15 world.

This leads me to propose the following house rule (which could probably already use some modification). In fact, perhaps I should call this a tentative suggestion in the general direction of producing a house rule.

Pick a price for an item with multiple TL equivalents (say the price of the middle TL item on the current equipment list). On a world of a given TL, that item at that same TL will cost the same. For every TL below the world you're on, reduce the price (and size, if appropriate) of the item by some set amount (10 or 20%?). For every TL above, increase the price by some set amount (if you're really into it, you might find out how close is the nearest world with the desired TL and estimate shipping costs from there).

I hope that makes sense...

Also, I just thought that perhaps instead of an item of a higher tech level than the local world being a lot more expensive, perhaps you just have to wait a number of weeks after you order one. If it's legal on that world and not terribly expensive to import it, I could see all the locals wanting one, leading to a backlog of orders because on a world with millions of folks, it seems it would be next to impossible to have enough starships to sate the local appetite for higher tech items.

FP, who hopes that makes as much sense to everyone as it did to him.

 

[Infojunky]

By and large Tech Levels are about local infrastructures, not what the local people know. Basic principle all knowledge what's to be free, it's the hardware that costs.

These are old assumptions that, yes, have atrracted much argument over the years ... because the assumptions ... make no sense whatsoever in either real world terms or if you assume that the local TL is all about local infrastructures.

As a generalization or over arching Tech Level works, in the detail not so much, or I see what your say Phil.

And technically assault weapons could be produced at a TL as low as two, per example there are AK design rifles being produced in small quantities by gunsmiths in Afghanistan.

My point is you need to treat TL as general read of a particular worlds technical skills coupled to the over all infrastructure. Not in exact terms of what they produce in specific.

Go look at the CIA's world fact-book, it in it's way is just another display of UWP on the nation state level.

 

[Jame Rowe]

I'm starting to think about biotechnological versions of the stuff presented in the MGT book. It should start about TL 9, and uses a reversed version of the price list for the cybertech stuff.

 

[aspqrz]

Assault Rifles should be TL6 - they were invented 2 years before the first nuke and rose to prominence (AK47) two years after it. Semi-automatic rifles are probably TL5, with lever-action ones being TL4. SMGs should be TL5 (circa WWI) as well.

With the greatest respect possible, you're completely, totally, absolutely, 100% ... incorrect.

Firstly, SMGs, come into use with the Villar Perosa, 1915. Note that this is TL4, "Roughly comparable to the late 19th/early 20th century" according to MongTrav, page #5.

Secondly, the Automatic Rifle, either the BAR or Huot (Canadian) appear in 1917. Note, this is stillTL4, "Roughly comparable to the late 19th/early 20th century" according to MongTrav, page #5.

Now that we have that settled. TL4 for the introduction of SMGs and Automatic Rifles ... prey tell, exactly what is the oh so massive mechanical difference between an Assault Rifle and an Automatic Rifle?

I really need to know.

These things are mechanical technology. ARs need "high tech" precision machine tools to be made ... available at ... gasp ... late TL3/TL4 ... and are costly because of it.

SMGs and Assault Rifles use cheap stampings and a minimum of high tech. The Sten, for example, was produced in bicycle workshops in the UK and in even less technologically advanced circumstances in occupied europe by the Resistance.

"The Sten required a minimum amount of machining and manufacturing effort by using simple pressed metal components and minor welding. Much of the production could be performed by small workshops ... the most basic model could be produced from five man-hours work ... were made from only 47 different parts." -- wikipedia

And, note, if you think the Sten was simple, then have a look at the emergency late war German SMGs!

Then look at the reason the MP-43 was introduced ... the Germans needed a rifle that could be produced more simply, in less sophisticated and less advanced technologically speaking, factories and produced more quickly than the Kar-98k or MP-38/40.

Tech Levels represent, or should represent what a Tech Level is capable of doing ... which means that late TL3 had the capability to produce all of these weapons (the hangup was a lack of knowledge as to how to make reliable metal cartridge cases ... not a lack of technological capability, mind ... a lack of practical knowledge!).

This is one of the key problems with people and Traveller TLs. Many people fall into the same "trap" you have, equating "year of production" with "technical capability to do it."

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[aspqrz]

By and large Tech Levels are about local infrastructures, not what the local people know. Basic principle all knowledge what's to be free, it's the hardware that costs.

These are old assumptions that, yes, have atrracted much argument over the years ... because the assumptions ... make no sense whatsoever in either real world terms or if you assume that the local TL is all about local infrastructures.

As a generalization or over arching Tech Level works, in the detail not so much, or I see what your say Phil.

And technically assault weapons could be produced at a TL as low as two, per example there are AK design rifles being produced in small quantities by gunsmiths in Afghanistan.

My point is you need to treat TL as general read of a particular worlds technical skills coupled to the over all infrastructure. Not in exact terms of what they produce in specific.

Go look at the CIA's world fact-book, it in it's way is just another display of UWP on the nation state level.

Exactly. Look at Somalia. TL2, if not lower, and yet it has the most advanced and extensive and cheapest Mobile Phone network in all of Africa! With Satellite Uplink connections to the rest of the world.

Impossible, according to a strict interpretation of 1950's technological assumptions a la the way many people interpret Traveller Tech Levels.

Phil

 

[simonh]

However you slice classing traveller Tech levels, they're a load of rubbish. Given the the real world moved from TL4 to TL8 in about a hundred years, how many worlds would yo expect to be stuck at TL 4-7 in a thousand year old Imperium?

That aside, I always understood it that the TL of an item was the TL at which it came into common use, not the TL in which it was first made on a limited or experimental basis.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Jame Rowe]

This is another reason why I classify the period of about 1870 to 1920 to be TL-5 and not TL-4...