complete REH-inspired timeline

Finarvyn

Mongoose
Has anyone put together a timeline of events that connects REH's different characters together?

For example;
~18,000 BC - Kull
~10,000 BC - Conan
210 AD - Bran Mak Morn
1529 AD - Red Sonya
1566 AD - Solomon Kane
~1850 - various REH Wild West events
?? - Francis X. Gordon events
etc.

1. I know from other threads that the dates for Kull and Conan are under discussion; my dates were given for illustration purposes.
2. Each character would have a timeline of his/her own fit into the main sequence
3. Various more modern REH Cthulhu references would fit in as well
 
I don't know of one. Where do you get your Bran and Solomon dates from? They're c.300 and c.1600, aren't they?
 
The biggest problem with attempting a complete Howard timeline is that over the years Howard changed when various "eras" occurred. His King Kull stories prior to 1932 are set around 100,000 BC. After 1932 he linked them to the Hyborian Age, which occured much closer to our time. Heck, his Conan stories can be argueably placed at various times. "Phoenix on the Sword" has that great intro that places Conan's age between the sinking of Atlantis (9500 BC) and the rise of the sons of Aryas (Approx 2500 BC). Yet within a few months of that story he wrote "The Hyborian Age", which seems to place the Hyborian Age prior to the last Ice Age (approx 30,000 BC).

And then we have the world histories given in "Men of the Shadows" and "The Isle of the Eons", which give the event timelines of the western hemisphere from the dawn of man until Bran Mak Morn's time. And while there is a it of overlap between the various histories, these are pretty incompatable with the Hyborian Age version of history.

Oh, and the 18,000 BC - Kull date and the 10,000 BC - Conan date were the creations of Lin Carter and L. Sprague DeCamp respectively. Howard doesn't place any of his Conan/Kull stuff remotely near that timeframe, although his Atlantean Empire that appears in "Skullface" and "The Moon of Skulls" dates from around that time (prior to the end of the ice age).

I have literally spent years attempting to solve this problem and I have only found one way to reconcile the various problems. But it requires jumping off a mental cliff that I don't believe most Howard fans could bring themselves to condone (the cliff is of the "paradigm shift" variety).
 
Darkstorm said:
I have literally spent years attempting to solve this problem and I have only found one way to reconcile the various problems. But it requires jumping off a mental cliff that I don't believe most Howard fans could bring themselves to condone (the cliff is of the "paradigm shift" variety).
So color me curious. What is this "pardaigm shift" of which you speak? Care to elaborate? 8)

Just so long as it doesn't involve Hypertime... :evil:


Anyways, as to the OP's question, I don't know of anyone who has compiled a Howard timeline across all his works/characters. That would probably be a prety big job I think.

Later.
 
Faraer said:
I don't know of one. Where do you get your Bran and Solomon dates from? They're c.300 and c.1600, aren't they?
I'm not sure, exactly. I've been looking for this type of information on the web for quite a while and don't often footnote my research. One place I looked was the Timeline of fictional historical events which can be found here:
http://fixedreference.org/en/20040424/wikipedia/Timeline_of_fictional_historical_events

It's not a REH-specific site and possibly is not very accurate at all. That's part of why I was hoping that someone else would have already done a complete timeline (and a better job of it!). :wink:
 
The "Paradigm Shift" occurs when you look at all the timeline events across all of Howard's shared world stories and it suddenly hits you that if you took out the "Hyborian Age" essay, then it all comes together into a fairly coherent timeline. Even the Conan stories fit into the timeline without much effort.

You see, the "Hyborian Age" essay is sort of a weird duck anyway. It wasn't created to be the backbone of Conan's world as much as it was a tool to help Howard keep his historical background realistic. Howard tended to ignore it when it suited him and there are at least two Conan stories that contain info that flat-out contradicts statements made in the essay. The essays biggest problem is the telescoping of the passage of time.

And it has other problems, in that it contradicts things from previously published stories (such as the complete destruction of Atlantis and Lemuria during the Great Cataclysm) as well as adding spurious information into the timeline of those stories.

The thing is, I like the essay. I love its history, I like how it ends in ruin. I wouldn't want to see that stuff left out. But I also understand that there should be a hierarchy to what is correct and what isn't. The facts from published stories in their final forms should trump the facts from what was basically a tool to keep said facts straight.

If a person was looking to solve the intractable problems inherent in Howard's world, he should try to identify and minimize the damage where ever possible. Because of the problems inherent in the Hyborian Age essay, you can do both. Minimizing its importance would be the best solution to the timeline problems, but there isn't a Howard fan in the world that would contemplate doing it.
 
Darkstorm said:
The "Paradigm Shift" occurs when you look at all the timeline events across all of Howard's shared world stories and it suddenly hits you that if you took out the "Hyborian Age" essay, then it all comes together into a fairly coherent timeline. Even the Conan stories fit into the timeline without much effort.

You see, the "Hyborian Age" essay is sort of a weird duck anyway. It wasn't created to be the backbone of Conan's world as much as it was a tool to help Howard keep his historical background realistic. Howard tended to ignore it when it suited him and there are at least two Conan stories that contain info that flat-out contradicts statements made in the essay. The essays biggest problem is the telescoping of the passage of time.

And it has other problems, in that it contradicts things from previously published stories (such as the complete destruction of Atlantis and Lemuria during the Great Cataclysm) as well as adding spurious information into the timeline of those stories.

The thing is, I like the essay. I love its history, I like how it ends in ruin. I wouldn't want to see that stuff left out. But I also understand that there should be a hierarchy to what is correct and what isn't. The facts from published stories in their final forms should trump the facts from what was basically a tool to keep said facts straight.

If a person was looking to solve the intractable problems inherent in Howard's world, he should try to identify and minimize the damage where ever possible. Because of the problems inherent in the Hyborian Age essay, you can do both. Minimizing its importance would be the best solution to the timeline problems, but there isn't a Howard fan in the world that would contemplate doing it.

This "error" of REH reminds me of sentence about Homer (said by the Roman poet Horatius IIRC): Sometimes even Homerus sleeps.
 
Darkstorm said:
The "Paradigm Shift" occurs when you look at all the timeline events across all of Howard's shared world stories and it suddenly hits you that if you took out the "Hyborian Age" essay, then it all comes together into a fairly coherent timeline. Even the Conan stories fit into the timeline without much effort.
This is an interesting notion, and you’re right: it does require a certain leap of faith. Have you actually put together any notes on this?

Darkstorm said:
The facts from published stories in their final forms should trump the facts from what was basically a tool to keep said facts straight.
I agree with this. The final versions of the stories should be the most trusted, assuming that they weren’t edited after Howard’s death. I know that some of the stories I find in various books have copyright dates in the 1970’s and I often wonder how authentic they are, or why they don’t have earlier copyright.
 
Darkstorm said:
You see, the "Hyborian Age" essay is sort of a weird duck anyway. It wasn't created to be the backbone of Conan's world as much as it was a tool to help Howard keep his historical background realistic. Howard tended to ignore it when it suited him and there are at least two Conan stories that contain info that flat-out contradicts statements made in the essay. The essays biggest problem is the telescoping of the passage of time.

Just like a real history book: what's in there is a good organization of events, but they may not have happened like that at all, other events took place that simply weren't recorded, or the truth of matters is lost to time or the victor's point of view.

:wink:
 
Finarvyn wrote:
This is an interesting notion, and you’re right: it does require a certain leap of faith. Have you actually put together any notes on this?

Well, I certainly played around with the concept when I wrote the essays that comprised "The Hyborian Heresies". I'm currently writing an essay for Joe Marek's fanzine that looks at the history of Howard's world prior to the writing of "The Hyborian Age". So the idea I'm proposing has been bouncing around in my head for quite some time. I haven't made a timeline of it, yet; its still pretty much all in my head. I figure in order to put it to paper (or electrons) I have to first write one essay on Howard's evolution theory and another on the problems with "The Hyborian Age" essay (if you're going to do something this radical, you need to explain why). Only then would I attempt to write up a complete timeline of history.

Finarvyn wrote:
I know that some of the stories I find in various books have copyright dates in the 1970’s and I often wonder how authentic they are, or why they don’t have earlier copyright.

This is a good question and one without an easy answer. Other than the Gnome Press Conan books, Skullface and Others, and a Gent From Bear Creek, Howard didn't appear in mass-market book form until the 70's. A number of the books published then were paperbacks of the Donald Grant hardcovers that appeared a couple of years earlier (Grant did tend to edit offensive material), while some were collections put together by Glen Lord (these weren't edited). For the most part, this editing had no real effect on the ideas behind the stories, unlike Sprague DeCamp's wholesale rewriting of various Conan stories. Since the recent Conan, Solomon Kane, Bran Mak Morn and the upcoming Kull books contain unexpergated texts, I see no real textual purity problems looming on the horizon in the near future.
 
Discussing the timeline....Just finished to read the GURPS CONAN book. There is ab timeline of the events in tne Conan stories, based on the beginning of the Aquilonian Empire. Is this serious? Because I did`nt find something like this in the Mongoose products.
 
I haven't looked at GURPS Conan in years. Could you give us some sample dates? I've never seen an "official" timeline based on Aquilonia, but perhaps I've missed something...
 
OK BEYOND THE BLACK RIVER is dated 1286, BLACK STRANGER 1287, PHOENIX ON THE SWORD 1289.

Note: My Conan Book is the German Version.
 
Teutonic said:
OK BEYOND THE BLACK RIVER is dated 1286, BLACK STRANGER 1287, PHOENIX ON THE SWORD 1289.

Note: My Conan Book is the German Version.

Agreeing with Ripkke's Chronology of Conan and with James Van Hise in http://www.rehupa.com/vanhise_conan.htm there's a gap of around seven years between "Beyond the Black River" and "The Phoenix on the Sword". In the fragment/synopsis "Wolves Beyond the Border", Gault Hagar's son is a teenager, but he says he was ten years-old when the Picts destroyed the Fort Tuscelan.
 
I don't understand WHY so many confusion about Kull's timeline. If REH wrote that his Atlantean character lived around 100,000 years B.C., this simply means that KULL LIVED 100,000 YEARS AGO, independent of "The Hyborian Age" (apparently) puts a short time between the Valusia's king and Conan!

Let's see other facts: Vendhya was founded at least 10,000 years before Conan, as Rippke himself said in the conan.com. This puts the Vendhya's foundation in 43,000 B.C (if Conan lived in the time said by Rippke) or 20,000 (if the Cimmerian was from 10,000 B.C - in my opinion, whatever of the two dates to Conan's Era seems reasonable). The Yasmina's kingdom was founded by the kshatriyas after a olive-skinned Lemurian people had settled there. Believing they had lived in pre-Vendhya by 500 years, before the coming of the Kshatriyas - and knowing that the Lemurians were enslaved by the Khari for, at least, 2,000 years -, we'll have here AT LEAST 12,500 years between the Great Cataclism and the Age of Conan.

Based upon the Howard's date given to Kull, and the Rippke's one to Conan, and some dates of "The Hyborian Age", I'd make the following draft:

- c. 100,000 B.C.: Age of Kull. In the few following millenia, Atlanteans learn to forge metals, and some of them become civilized, founding Negari in Kaa-u;

- 95,000 B.C.: Atlantis, Mu and Lemuria sank, leaving just little archipelagoes of them. Lemurians are enslaved by the Khari;

- 94,500 B.C.: Lesser Cataclysm. Dagonia is founded and, a few centuries later, is destroyed by Yuetshis;

- 93,500 B.C.: Atlanteans and Picts become ape-men.

- 93,000 B.C.: First Hyborians migrations toward the South, "extending over centuries and ages" (see "Black Colossus");


In some moment, the Lemurians rise and destroy the Khari. When the Khari reach the Vilayet, Lemurians - after Khitai and Old Kosala's foundation - go westward, toward the lands at north of Ghanara. A little before this, in 53,000 B.C, Atlanteans ape-men became Cimmerians ("He [Conan] was a barbarian of a thousand generations of barbarians" - Beyond the Black River).


- 43,500 B.C.: Olive-skinned Lemurians go to the Jhumda River;

- 43,000 B.C.: Vendhya is founded by Kshatriyas. Elder Stygia becomes a powerful kingdom, under the Giant-Kings' rule. Princess Akivasha becomes a vampire;

- 39,000 B.C.: Dark-skinned Khari eventually reach Elder Stygia and conquer it. A great part of the white-skinned people of there flees toward Tybor River;

- 38,500 B.C.: Foundation of Acheron, done by Giant-King's people;

- 36,000 B.C.: Fall of Acheron, under Hyborian's invasions;

- 33,000 B.C.: Age of Conan;

- 32,500 B.C.: Fall of Aquilonia. Picts conquer Aquilonia, Zingara, Argos, Ophir, Western Koth and Western Shem. Hyrkanians conquer Zamora, Britunia, Hyperborea, Corinthia, Eastern Koth, Border Kingdom and Eastern Shem. Gorm is killed by Hialmar, whose Aesir save Nemedia of Picts and Hyrkanians invaders. Stygia is attacked by Black Kingdoms;

- 32,400 B.C.: Beginning of the Glacial Age.



For the time being, the timeline above is just a draft I intend to develop in the future.
 
Interesting post.
I've got a pretty comprehensive view of this timeline, although it differs significantly from Fernando's. I've tried to keep the disruption of Howard's stated dates to an absolute minimum. In my opinion, the basic problem is that 500 year period between the Greater and Lesser Cataclysms. There is an absolutely huge period of time between the two events, if common sense means anything at all.

This is a draft of my proposed timeline, using all of Howard's material from his various writings. Note that there are sections that I won't positively pin down a date to, due to vagueness in the material. Also, this is being written off the top of my head, so don't lock me irrevocably into the dates.

-c. Pre-107,000 B.C.: [The days of the Elder Planet]
The world consists of numerous warring, sentient races; Serpent-men, Wolf-people, Harpies, Bat-men, Bird-women, Goblins, Flying fiends, and Demons. During this period in Earth’s prehistory, the most advanced race on the planet was a race of winged men. They reared their colossal city on the meadowlands of what is now equatorial Africa.

[The Elder Earth of the Old Race]
The Elder Race of Man evolves from some type of sea-creature (an aquatic ape?) and begins to build cities along the western shore of the (Eur-Asian) continent. Atlantis and Mu were only isles in the sea during this time, and Lemuria had yet to rise. Man begins it's wars with the races of the Elder Planet. The nation of Valusia was founded at this time.

The world suffers from a cataclysmic pole-shift, ending an ongoing Ice Age; the continents of Mu and Atlantis, as well as the island archipelago of Lemuria rise from the sea.

Around this time, a new race of humans evolve on a large land in the extreme north (in present day Alaska). They call themselves the Nameless Tribe and consider themselves to be the first race of true men.

Aboriginal races of man evolve on the new continents of Atlantis and Mu. A race of white-skinned men arises in the Far East of the (Eur-Asian) continent. This is the Thurian race.

Having carved themselves a place in the world, the war between the Old Race of man and the creatures of the Elder Planet seems to have simmered down somewhat. The men of the Old Race war among themselves, with new tribes throwing down older nations and replacing them anew.

A new race of man evolves from some type of sea-creature in the Isles of Lemuria. The race isn't completely human, as they have scales and can swim for hours underwater.

The Nameless tribe traveled down to the southern coast of their land and out into the sea, sailing southward along a string of islands until they settle at last among the westernmost of those isles; a warm fertile place that they called the Sunset Isles.

-c. approximately 107,000 B.C.:The Thurian race invades the lands of the western (Eur-Asian) continent. They conquer the lands of the Old Race of man and capture the nation of Valusia. Under the leadership of Raama, the Thurians take up the war against the creatures of the Elder Planet and free mankind from their grasp. The serpent-people are the last to go, being driven into the wastelands of the world (and presumably founding their nation of Stygia far to the south of the lands of man). Civilization reaches its height with the founding of the Seven Empires of Thuria.

-c. approximately 106,000 B.C.: The Poseidon-worshipping Lemurian race invades and incorporates the continent of Mu into its empire, creating "Lemuria of the West". It absorbs the Xultha-worshipping aboriginal population and its culture. They build their capital, Karath the Shining City, upon the continent of Mu. The "Men of the Sea" (half-human Lemurians) begin raiding the Sunset Isles in war-canoes, and are considered the Second race of man by the Nameless Tribe (who have begun calling themselves the Picts).

-c. approximately 105,000 B.C.: The serpent-men infiltrate the lands of the Thurians. A secret war between humans and the serpent-men ends when the human worshipers of the flying dragon introduce a watchword that the serpent men cannot speak; Ka nama kaa lajerama.

-c. approximately 103,000 B.C.: A remnant of the declining serpent-man race return into Valusia as priests and institute the worship of the Great Serpent. Their power becomes such that it becomes a death sentence to repeat old legends of the snake-people. They are content to rule behind the scenes.

-c. approximately 102,000 B.C.: The Picts develop long distant war-craft and begin raiding the coasts of Atlantis and Valusia. Lion-Fang, seventh war chief of the Picts, kills the king of Valusia in one such raid and watches him die as a serpent.

-c. 101,000 B.C.: Eallal, king of Valusia is murdered in his throne-room by the serpent-men.

-c. approximately 100,500 B.C.?: The Great Flood occurs. It is unknown if it was a world-wide flood or just effected Atlantis. About this time a civil war erupts on the continent of Mu between the worshipers of Poseidon and Xultha, and Nyulah the Usurper seizes the jade throne. He builds his pleasure city of Na-hor atop the mountains of Valla, developing his new capital into a cultural powerhouse; founding academies of arts and science, magic and sorcery. Nyulah instructs the priests of Xultha to build shrines in Atlantis, the Seven Empires, and the Isles of the Sea. He is unsuccessful in placing a shrine in Valusia due to the worship of the Great Serpent. During this time a colony from Mu (Howard calls it a shadowy and nameless continent lying to the east) is founded on the shores of the eastern Thurian continent.

-c. 100,025 B.C.: The Picts ally with Valusia and an eastern Pictish colony is set up on the mountains of Valusia's southern frontier as a buffer against foreign invasion.

-c. 100,000 B.C.: Age of Kull. The serpent-men of Valusia are destroyed and worship of the Great Serpent is curtailed.

-c. 99,500 B.C.: Thurian civilization begins to crumble; foreigners make up it's generals, statesmen and occasionally kings. Valusia and Commoria fight a series of wars that weakens both nations enough that the Atlanteans successfully manage to militarily found a new kingdom on the mainland from the conquered territories.

-c. 99,000 B.C.: [The Great Cataclysm] The Thurian continent is devastated; large parts of the continent, including huge chunks of Valusia, disappear beneath the waves. Atlantis sinks, leaving behind only a few scattered, uninhabitable islands. The vast archipelago of Lemuria is inundated, leaving behind only a great, mountainous island surrounded by a number of smaller islets. Continental Mu is rent asunder and vanishes beneath the waves, leaving only the crags of the Valla mountain range above water. The lands surrounding the city of the winged men are altered; growing into dank jungle. Reasons inexplicable to mankind keep the city’s inhabitants from migrating to better surroundings. The only known nations to survive the Cataclysm relatively unscathed are on the Thurian continent; pre-human Stygia in the South and the colony of Mu in the East.

more to follow...
 
Very good! :D At last, a timeline using stuff from other Howad's writings (like "The Shadow Kingdom" and "Men of the Shadows")!

But... before the "more to follow" you announced in your draft's end, remember a passage of "The Gods of Bal-Sagoth", where REH said the following:

"Turlogh and Athelstane leaned on the rail, gazing back at the swiftly receding Island of the Gods, from which rose a pillar of smoke, laden with the ghosts of a thousand centuries"

I know you don't believe Negari was founded in Thurian Age - though I do -, but the passage above can mean that Atlanteans founded a colony in some remnants islands at east - maybe shortly after the Great Cataclism... :wink:

Anyhow, thank you for the excellent - and very complete! - beginning above.
 
Fernando: I like your timeline, it seems very consistant. I have only these comments:

in 53,000 B.C, Atlanteans ape-men became Cimmerians ("He [Conan] was a barbarian of a thousand generations of barbarians" - Beyond the Black River).

- 38,500 B.C.: Foundation of Acheron, done by Giant-King's people;

I have this quote for you from The Hour of the Dragon:

Hour of the Dragon said:
"He is a Cimmerian, one of those wild tribesmen who dwell in the grey hills of the north."

"I fought his ancestors of old," muttered Xaltotun. "Not even the kings of Acheron could conquer them."

So far as I understand it is generally accepted that Xaltotun is talking about Atlanteans when he refers to Conan's ancestors. This would throw out your timeline by quite a bit. What do you think?
 
calamus said:
Fernando: I like your timeline, it seems very consistant. I have only these comments:

in 53,000 B.C, Atlanteans ape-men became Cimmerians ("He [Conan] was a barbarian of a thousand generations of barbarians" - Beyond the Black River).

- 38,500 B.C.: Foundation of Acheron, done by Giant-King's people;

I have this quote for you from The Hour of the Dragon:

Hour of the Dragon said:
"He is a Cimmerian, one of those wild tribesmen who dwell in the grey hills of the north."

"I fought his ancestors of old," muttered Xaltotun. "Not even the kings of Acheron could conquer them."

So far as I understand it is generally accepted that Xaltotun is talking about Atlanteans when he refers to Conan's ancestors. This would throw out your timeline by quite a bit. What do you think?

Maybe Xaltotun wasn't talking exactly about Atlanteans. Three thousand years before Conan's reign, the Cimmerians had completely forgot their Atlantean ancestry. I think that, in the Age of Acheron, the Conan's ancestors had a name that wasn't neither "Atlanteans" nor "Cimmerians" - the timeline above is, as I said, still a draft.

When I said that, 14,500 years before Acheron's foundation, "Atlanteans ape-men became Cimmerians", I meant that the Atlanteans evolved again, to a physical and cultural level that was identical to their Cimmerians descendant :wink: . Other point is that I think Atlanteans ape-men - "without human speech, or the knowledge of fire or the use of implements" - wouldn't be able to defeat Acheronians sorcerers. :lol:

Anyhow, thank you for your attention and your praise. :D
 
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