Command Points: Possibilities

[Democratus]

We are getting ready to start a new campaign in my local area. (Dilgar won the current one!) After our experiences playing through a full campaign we have decided to try and tweak the rules we are using at home.

The biggest problem we see with ACTA is the init sink problem. There is simply no way around it without a massive change. We played around with changing the move system to "move + shoot", but that threw the value of the ships waay off and caused complications that were too much trouble to suffer.

So we thought a bit about how to reach a middle ground. One proposal was that ships with the Command trait could have a few abilities linked to the trait. This has the added bonus of making Command ships more of a priority target in ACTA (as they should be).

Here's what we've got so far. It's a work in progress so please share your thoughts and ideas.

===============================================
Command Abilities:

A ship with the Command trait may, each turn, use any of the following abilities once per point of command. So, for example, a ship with Command +2 can use two of these abilities per turn.

• 
  * Priority Fire: A nominated ship may fire immediately after moving during the movement phase. This ship may not fire during the subsequent fire phase of the same turn.
  
  * Priority Scramble: A nominated ship may perform the Scramble! order immediately, launching its auxiliary craft immediately after moving during the movement phase. This ship will not launch any craft during the end phase.
  
  * Command Decision: A nominated ship may re-roll a Crew Quality check.

===============================================

We are also still trying to decide if this should be on a per-turn basis or on a per-battle basis. Per-turn makes the command ship much more important to kill - this is good for theme and tactics. Per-battle means that there will likely be less impact on the overall battle (only when it matters most) but that a command ship, once it has spent its points, is no longer a priority target.

Please discuss.

 

[BraveSirRobin]

Sounds pretty fun. If you want something in between the two extremes, why not make it like Scout abilities, and use a CQ 9 check, and maybe use the command bonus as a modifier?

 

[Mean Mutton]

As far as the initiative sink thing goes -- I've always found that I'd much rather have my ships squadroned together. I'd rather get that huge first punch in than have a ton of ships floating around, waiting to fire.

In fact, there's a couple members of our group who get upset about how powerful the squadrons are (particularly when it's a Dilgar pentacon led by an Ochlavita command ship).

 

[tschuma]

We limit the number of ships to double the points of the game. If it is a 4 point game then the maxi is 8 ships. Plus we use the optional Redundency rule in P&P which helps out hte larger ships surviving longer.

tschuma

 

[Democratus]

The problem is that if your enemy has enough init sinks, your huge squadron will have not targets. This is especially true for fleets that rely heavily on Boresight weaponry.

I fly primarily Dilgar fleets, so I understand the power of squadrons. But my enemy is nearly always lost because of the "pentacon pass" rule, combined with breaking up one of the pentacons to create 5 more init sinks.

I've had cases where my enemy has had to move his entire fleet before I've committed a single ship of Raid size or larger. Against Narn, Drazi and certain EA forces this can be devastating. It is getting to the point where nobody wants to even bother with the battle due to this issue.

Limiting fights to X ships based on the number of points in a fight works for tournament play but is a bit too artificial for a campaign. You fight with whatever ships are available in campaign - and sometimes all you have at hand is a pile of Patrol and Skirmish-level ships because the big ships are fighting battles elsehwere.

The Command rule is an attempt to at least mitigate this somewhat. With it (or something like it) you can at least guarantee that one or two of your ships will be able to engage an important target before it moves out of arc.

What I'm looking for is a list of suggested powers to be able to invoke with these points - and some opinions on whether these abilities should be on a per-turn or per-battle basis.

And I'm always open to new and even better ideas.

Thanks for the input. Keep it coming!


PS: There will be one final battle in my Dilgar/EarlyEA/Centauri campaign where both my enemies join forces and try to take down my station. An AAR will be posted. Can't wait!

 

[reyamc2001]

I like this idea. I think that it would be best as a per turn basis, as a per battle basis would be a little too limiting. I would suggest that you only be allowed a number equal to the HIGHEST command ship in your fleet, otherwise it could get a little rediculous with multiple ships with command in a fleet.

 

[Democratus]

That's what we're thinking. You use the highest command ship as your sole source of these points. If that ship is destroyed, another can take over and use its command rating.

We gave a close look to the command ratings available to each fleet. In particular we looked at the maximum available for a given force.

Abbai (1), Brakira(2), Centauri(3), Dilgar(2), Drakh(2), Drazi(1), EA (2/3/3), Gaim(0), ISA(3), Minbari(2), Narn(2), Psi(0), Raiders(1), Shadow(0), Vorlon(0), Vree(2).

EA Crusade and ISA come out on top with +3 command ships. But these are War-level so would only make an appearence in large battles. Most other significant navies have a +2 somewhere in the ranks. Those that have no command ships (gaim, shadow, vorlon) generally don't need them.

Since we are still allowing init sinks, the command vessel could very well be forced to move and expose itself if its fleet is smaller (a consequence of purchasing such large ships) and so its powers are still somewhat countered by its vulnerability.

I'm also begining to lean toward a "per-turn" use as well. This will often make it critical to eliminate that command vessel to keep the enemy from repeatedly hitting you with a powerful ship.

So...given that. Does anyone have ideas for more powers than just the 3 listed above?

And again...thanks for all the input!

 

[Da Boss]

Interesting idea - look forward to hearing how it works out. Must check out your blog if the campaign progressed - and the assault on the station sounds very cool.

re Command ships - another option would be that Command ships give a free Iniative pass like Dilgar Pentacons?
It may also be worth creating a few more Command ships for soem of the races? One of the problems I can see is that the fleets that suffer least with the present Iniative system - Dilgar/ Centauri have superior command ships at low level so it could make it actually worse?

Have you tried out the new Track that target rules from P+P - did they make any difference?

The Balvarin is a prerfect example of a great ship which also has Command as an added extra.............

 

[Mean Mutton]

Interesting idea - look forward to hearing how it works out. Must check out your blog if the campaign progressed - and the assault on the station sounds very cool.

re Command ships - another option would be that Command ships give a free Iniative pass like Dilgar Pentacons?
It may also be worth creating a few more Command ships for soem of the races? One of the problems I can see is that the fleets that suffer least with the present Iniative system - Dilgar/ Centauri have superior command ships at low level so it could make it actually worse?

Have you tried out the new Track that target rules from P+P - did they make any difference?

The Balvarin is a prerfect example of a great ship which also has Command as an added extra.............

Track That Target makes bore-sight weapons MUCH more powerful and really makes initiative sinks less important. I will say, as someone who plays races that don't have a lot of bore-sight weapons, Track-That-Target is one of those rules that make me go "ouch".

 

[Democratus]

I will admit that "Track that Target" can be helpful. But our battles very often turn into a wild close-range skirmish quickly. At that point it is very little effort for my ships to get completely out of the forward arc of Boresight ships since I can force them to move before my important ships.

Centauri and Dilgar, in particular, perform very will once you get close.

I like the idea of doing a "pass" on initiative like a pentacon with the command point. I'm going to add it in.

So thus far we have:
==========================
Command Points

For each point of command the flagship of a fleet has, it may use one of the following abilities once a turn. No ship may be the recipient of more than a single power in one turn.

• 
  * Priority Fire: A nominated ship may fire immediately after moving during the movement phase. This ship may not fire during the subsequent fire phase of the same turn.
  
  * Priority Scramble: A nominated ship may perform the Scramble! order immediately, launching its auxiliary craft immediately after moving during the movement phase. This ship will not launch any craft during the end phase.
  
  * Command Decision: A nominated ship may re-roll a Crew Quality check.
  
  * Tactical Advantage: A nominated ship or squadron may "pass" on its initiative turn (see pentacon rules). The ship must still perform its move before the end of the turn.

Keep the ideas coming. This is really going to help!

If my suspicions are correct, our next campaign will be Earth (Crusade), Narn, and Drazi. So the boresight issue will really make itself felt.

 

[Mean Mutton]

I will admit that "Track that Target" can be helpful. But our battles very often turn into a wild close-range skirmish quickly. At that point it is very little effort for my ships to get completely out of the forward arc of Boresight ships since I can force them to move before my important ships.

Centauri and Dilgar, in particular, perform very will once you get close.

I like the idea of doing a "pass" on initiative like a pentacon with the command point. I'm going to add it in.

So thus far we have:
==========================
Command Points

For each point of command the flagship of a fleet has, it may use one of the following abilities once a turn. No ship may be the recipient of more than a single power in one turn.

• 
  * Priority Fire: A nominated ship may fire immediately after moving during the movement phase. This ship may not fire during the subsequent fire phase of the same turn.
  
  * Priority Scramble: A nominated ship may perform the Scramble! order immediately, launching its auxiliary craft immediately after moving during the movement phase. This ship will not launch any craft during the end phase.
  
  * Command Decision: A nominated ship may re-roll a Crew Quality check.
  
  * Tactical Advantage: A nominated ship or squadron may "pass" on its initiative turn (see pentacon rules). The ship must still perform its move before the end of the turn.

Keep the ideas coming. This is really going to help!

If my suspicions are correct, our next campaign will be Earth (Crusade), Narn, and Drazi. So the boresight issue will really make itself felt.

Priority Fire might be a bit too powerful. It does remind me of the Start Attack Run special action in Powers & Principalities. That action halves AD used. You might want to do that as well here.

 

[Democratus]

The purpose of Priority Fire is to mitigate the huge problem that is init sinks. I've had battles recently where my opponent was unable to fire his boresight weapons for the length of the entire battle. Needless to say, this was quite frustrating and could have cost me a precious player in our group.

Other than moving the whole game to a "move & shoot" model - which breaks too many other things - this was the only compromise we could find. I know it isn't perfect, though.

Perhaps an additional restriction must be given. We could rule that a ship using command points treat the special power as if it were a Special Action. This would prevent these ships from doing a Close Blast Doors or Concentrate Firepower order while getting to move and shoot.

Is that a fair compromise?

 

[kodiak888]

Although it doesn't particularly apply to your command rules, my group has switched to moving 1 priority level point worth of ships at a time to help prevent initiative sink problems. It's not perfect, but overall we're happier with it.

 

[Mean Mutton]

The purpose of Priority Fire is to mitigate the huge problem that is init sinks. I've had battles recently where my opponent was unable to fire his boresight weapons for the length of the entire battle. Needless to say, this was quite frustrating and could have cost me a precious player in our group.

Other than moving the whole game to a "move & shoot" model - which breaks too many other things - this was the only compromise we could find. I know it isn't perfect, though.

Perhaps an additional restriction must be given. We could rule that a ship using command points treat the special power as if it were a Special Action. This would prevent these ships from doing a Close Blast Doors or Concentrate Firepower order while getting to move and shoot.

Is that a fair compromise?

Now I'm curious -- I'd be interested to hear the details of the encounter. What were the fleets and ships involved and what happened.

 

[Lifegiver]

I think that Your proposals change the game balance too much. A popular German optional rule is limiting each turn´s activations to 1.5 per point (rounding up). Thus, each player has 8 activations per turn in a typical 5 points battle level game. This weakens ini sinking and rewards squadroning small ships.

 

[Democratus]

Now I'm curious -- I'd be interested to hear the details of the encounter. What were the fleets and ships involved and what happened.

So far we've had 4 battles where one side's Boresight weaponry was rendered either useless or near useless. Two with Centauri vs. Narn, two with Dilgar vs. Earth (Early).

In one Narn battle, the narn did get a turn 1 shot on a Kutai but never was able to use his Boresights against any other ship throughout the battle.

In both Earth vs. Dilgar battles I (as the Dilgar) gave the enemy one shot on a frigate (Jashakar Tae) in the first turn of one game. After that not a single Hyperion or Orestes got a shot against me because I would init sink with tiny ships (moving out of range/arc/LOS) and force all his heavy ships to move before I committed anything of Raid level or higher.

 

[Mean Mutton]

Now I'm curious -- I'd be interested to hear the details of the encounter. What were the fleets and ships involved and what happened.

So far we've had 4 battles where one side's Boresight weaponry was rendered either useless or near useless. Two with Centauri vs. Narn, two with Dilgar vs. Earth (Early).

In one Narn battle, the narn did get a turn 1 shot on a Kutai but never was able to use his Boresights against any other ship throughout the battle.

In both Earth vs. Dilgar battles I (as the Dilgar) gave the enemy one shot on a frigate (Jashakar Tae) in the first turn of one game. After that not a single Hyperion or Orestes got a shot against me because I would init sink with tiny ships (moving out of range/arc/LOS) and force all his heavy ships to move before I committed anything of Raid level or higher.

You were out of arc of Track That Target, or was he just not using that? If you're out of arc of Track That Target, then the problem isn't just bore-site but with forward arc weapons entirely.

 

[tschuma]

Democratus

Your EA player should use the EA from Da Boss's Dilgar War Supplement. War Level Novas are awsome and don't need to boresight. Most of the EA in the Dilgar War Supplement do not have Bore-sited Beams. I like this EA list better then the Mongoose early years list.

tschuma

 

[Democratus]

"Track that Target" isn't very reliable - especially when you are flying ships with CQ of 2 or 3 (Campaign Play). But I also, more than often, could completely avoid the forward arc of the EA's big ships due to init sinks and the incredible maneuverability of my Dilgar.

My fellow players aren't so keen on playing material from fans as it hasn't been "officially" playtested. Otherwise I'd be rocking it with some Abbai or Brakiri in the next campaign.

Init sinks are a serious problem for many races that play larger ships with boresights. Narn and EA are particularly vulnerable.

 

[reyamc2001]

I think that I would also suggest that you limit each of the abilities to one use per turn. So a ship with command 3+ could issue three different orders once per turn, but not the same order to three different ships. Three ships gaining the priority fire ability would probably tip the scale too much.