Combat Styles

[GJD]

One of the combat styles for Civilised background is Rapier. If a player wanted to change this to Rapier and Main Gauche would they need two seperate skills, or could they "convert" rapier to Rapier and Main Gauche?

I can see that there might be an adavantage to two seperate techniques, learning how to fight with and without the parrying weapon, but it seems harsh to require the second skill to be bought up from nothing (or the base, anyway).

G.

 

[AnaliseLameth]

I don't see any reason not to allow the addition "Rapier and Main Gauche" as a single combat style, providing that it's something you think would be commonplace in your setting.

As the rules state, if someone lost the use of the second weapon in a two weapon style, they are not penalized. So you could use the rapier on it's own without penalty. However, when used in this combination, the main gauche does not give a second attack, it's a purely defensive weapon (p.163). If you were not holding your rapier, then I'd let you use the main gauche as a regular dagger without penalty.

 

[Lemnoc]

I would envision this as the Duelist Skill, which would include a range of lighter one-handed weapons from rapiers to sabers, as well as permitting a dagger/dirk/poniard or duelists cloak in the offhand.

 

[Dan True]

I'd properly broad it out to Rapier and Dagger, but otherwise yeah, if you feel there is no problem with changing the Civilised Background a bit, no problem.

- Dan

 

[soltakss]

I like the idea of a Duellist combat style - perfect for swashbuckling games.

 

[AnaliseLameth]

I think, unless I am reading it wrong, on page 124 it says " Using two weapons simultaneously also permits the wielder an extra Combat Action per round and maintains their effectiveness if one weapon is pinned, entangled or dropped. Secondary off hand weapons must be one size category smaller than the main weapon, unless both are small."

If you are using a style which allows rapier and a dagger, then that's your option.

The rapier and main gauche together use the main gauche in a defensive manner (p.103) in which "Parrying with a main gauche increases the damage blocked by one step (i.e. it is treated as a Medium weapon when parrying)."

That provides the defence capability. So, you would have to decide which one of the two options fitted your view of using sword & dagger... of course, nothing to really stop you from making one style that does both.

For swashbuckling .. there are small shields that have spikes (i forget their name) and dont forget you could also use a cloak in the offhand to entangle... a bit off topic perhaps, but combat styles are really flexible.

 

[Lemnoc]

I have always imagined the training for weapons also includes some training when one is deprived of said weapon. This seems to fit tight with the rules about suffering no penalty for dropped or deprived weapons--you've walked through this fire before.

Similarly, weapons of a kind are kinda similar to other weapons of that kind. And you've at least handled most of the familiar sorts. Balance might be off a bit, maybe you don't get all your fancy bonuses for a round. If you're trained as a duelist, every kind of lightweight pointy sword from saber to the epee is in your bag of tricks... and this answers a lot of "golf bag" kinds of weapon questions.

I recall that time Fafhrd found himself handling an unfamiliar stave. He got rapped hard in the head once, but quickly got the knack of it. Fighting men are like that.

 

[Mankcam]

I think one of the perks with MRQ/LEGEND is having combat styles as opposed to separate weapon skills.

I can definitely see the pros and cons for both approaches, and as an old AH RQ3 player I'm pretty much used to separate weapon skills.

However I do like what I read about combat styles in the MRQ2/LEGEND rules, it appears that you could easily make up combat styles and grant weapon scope based on your descriptions - for example, so if you wanted to have Florentine-style swordplay then it doesn't seem to break the system by creating a style and naming it 'Duelist' to cover Rapier with Main Gauche, for instance.

Alot of work could be done here to create new exotic combat styles to cover a varied scope of weapons, perhaps looking at asian combat styles or even non-human combat styles for player non-human fighters in a fantasy setting etc.

 

[Lemnoc]

Alot of work could be done here to create new exotic combat styles to cover a varied scope of weapons, perhaps looking at asian combat styles or even non-human combat styles for player non-human fighters in a fantasy setting etc.

I'm glad the rules keep much of this vague. I favor, for example, weapons skills that focus on WHO is using weapons and HOW they're being used, rather than WHICH specific weapons are selected. Seems a lot less fiddly, a bit more generous to the players (since they don't have to split their skill points between pearl or ivory handled revolvers , while allowing some interesting cultural distinctions.

 

[DamonJynx]

There is absolutely no reason Sword and Dagger can't be used with a Rapier and Main Gauche as they fit the rules for off-hand weapons. Either can be used for attack or defence, it's just the Main Gauche is treated as being medium when used to parry. There are no penalties for dual wielding that I've seen. If there are, can someone let me know which page they're own? I'm about to have a 'discussion' with our current GM regarding this very subject.

 

[DrBargle]

You could very well argue that Rapier and Main Gauche is sufficiently different to Sword and Dagger to be a different combat style. A rapier is a very different weapon to a longsword, and, thinking mechanically, if a main gauche can parry as a size larger than its listed size, then it is sufficiently different in use and effect from a dagger.

It all depends just how fine grained you want the combat styles to be. There is a penalty to using a weapon of the same general type, suggesting that weapon styles shouldn't incorporate 'all spears', 'all swords' etc. Yet there are also suggestions that weapon styles should be this broad.

I'd be interested to know just how fine grained a version of combat styles people are using.

Oh, and hello - picked up Legend a couple of weeks back, wondering whether to use it to replace a setting-less WFRP1e as my gritty rules engine.

 

[RangerDan]

I find it can be useful to decide during character creation which particular weapons fall under a PCs Combat Style and to note that down somewhere.

For example, Gorlen is a Bossonian Longbowman and Tervish is a Turanian Raider. They both have the Archery skill, but Gorlen's skill applies to Shortbows and Longbows, and Tervish's to Shortbows and Recurve Bows.

Expanding a PCs Combat Style skill to include similar weapons should be relatively low-cost. For example, Gorlen could learn to use Recurve Bows with his Archery skill at the cost of 1 or 2 Improvement Rolls. It's up to the GM what constitutes "similar weapons" and what doesn't.

(This concept is lifted from the Age of Treason book by the way).

I also like to add little flourishes or bonuses to specific Combat Styles to give them some additional cultural flavour. Ideally these Combat Styles should have specific weapons attached to them that cannot be expanded. For example:

• Zingaran Duellist
  Weapons: Rapier, Main Gauche, Dagger.
  Other: A fighter that knows Zingaran Duellist at 50% skill or higher and is fighting with a Rapier gains an additional CA for dual wielding even if his off-hand is empty. This bonus CA can only be used for an Evade action.

I'd be interested to know just how fine grained a version of combat styles people are using.

Regarding this, I feel it very much depends on the setting.
My Conan setting above is fairly fine-grained as you can see.
I have another game in the preparation phase (fantasy steampunk) where combat is less central... I'm thinking of something like six Combat Styles to cover all weapons.

 

[DamonJynx]

When you take a combat style, like sword and dagger, it applies to your initial choice of weapons whether that be a standard Longsword and dagger, or Rapier and Main Gauche. When you use other weapons for which you are unfamiliar that fall in the same categories there are penalties for that already built in to the system.

With your GM's permission you maybe able to train the other types of 1H Sword and daggers at the cost of an IR or something.

 

[soltakss]

I think, unless I am reading it wrong, on page 124 it says " Using two weapons simultaneously also permits the wielder an extra Combat Action per round and maintains their effectiveness if one weapon is pinned, entangled or dropped. Secondary off hand weapons must be one size category smaller than the main weapon, unless both are small."

That rule falls over when using 2 nunchuks, though, or when a giant picks up two tree trunks or a fighter uses two swords (I've seen the Water Margin). I would ignore it and allow 2 one-handed weapons.

 

[Lemnoc]

I'd be interested to know just how fine grained a version of combat styles people are using.

I tend to keep this pretty loose, since I can see that too fine a grain harms players' creative options in combat. I greatly favor the Open Quest notion that there is a basic competency for close combat and ranged combat, such that a warrior can pick up a weapon and more or less use it. A pool cue or a broken chair leg more or less function the same in a bar fight, and they're more or less held and handled in roughly the same way by people not fully trained in using them.

Combat Skills IMO revolve around WHO is using them and HOW. So we know a broadsword or battle axe are not a fencing weapons and would not work well when employed in a fencing style. Soldiers trained as Infantry Legionnaires have those basic skills. Etc.

Getting too fiddly with this (again IMO) creates situations where characters are hauling around golf bags of weapons and deciding whether to strike with the 5 or 9 iron. And it avoids the kind of situations like: "I jump out of the way." "Is jump listed as one of your skills? No? Then you can't jump out of the way."

I recall Chaosium's old Ringworld game (BRP) fooled around with the idea of Branch Skills. At (I think) percentages below 70% (IIRC) you were pretty much a generalist, above those percentages you became a specialist in a more highly refined branch technique. But you could still use any ol' similar kind of related skill at that basic competency of 70%. I thought it worked pretty well, and seemed to simulate that a Medical Doctor might be able to puzzle at some handicap through a problem in Biochemistry.

YMMV.

 

[DamonJynx]

In the Elric setting there are a couple of interesting combat styles:

• Pan Tangian Gladiatorial (Various)
  Many of Pan Tang’s warriors are trained as gladiators and
  many gladiators who win their freedom become Pan Tangian
  warriors. This style teaches the use of all the following weapons
  in any combination: Battleaxe, Broadsword, Buckler, Dagger,
  Falchion, Hatchet, Mace, Morningstar, Net, Scimitar Target
  Shield and Trident.
  The style’s focus is on pleasing the crowd, so Impales, Bleeds,
  Trips and Stun Locations are favoured over maximum damage
  and attacks to the most vulnerable areas. It is a vicious, relentless,
  fighting style.
  Pan Tangian Warrior (Sword and
  Shield, Spear and Shield, Axe and
  Shield)
  Pan Tang’s warriors are brutal combatants. This style teaches the
  warrior to use a sword, spear and axe in combination with a shield.
  It emphasizes maximizing damage and disabling foes through slow
  and steady debilitation rather than a swift a merciful death.

Obviously, the Gladiator style is better for someone who's a bit of an opportunist.

 

[Mixster]

In the Elric setting there are a couple of interesting combat styles:

• Pan Tangian Gladiatorial (Various)
  Many of Pan Tang’s warriors are trained as gladiators and
  many gladiators who win their freedom become Pan Tangian
  warriors. This style teaches the use of all the following weapons
  in any combination: Battleaxe, Broadsword, Buckler, Dagger,
  Falchion, Hatchet, Mace, Morningstar, Net, Scimitar Target
  Shield and Trident.
  The style’s focus is on pleasing the crowd, so Impales, Bleeds,
  Trips and Stun Locations are favoured over maximum damage
  and attacks to the most vulnerable areas. It is a vicious, relentless,
  fighting style.
  Pan Tangian Warrior (Sword and
  Shield, Spear and Shield, Axe and
  Shield)
  Pan Tang’s warriors are brutal combatants. This style teaches the
  warrior to use a sword, spear and axe in combination with a shield.
  It emphasizes maximizing damage and disabling foes through slow
  and steady debilitation rather than a swift a merciful death.

Obviously, the Gladiator style is better for someone who's a bit of an opportunist.

I don't know, Gladiator style teaches neither the shortspear, the hoplon shield, or the war sword/longsword. Which are all stable weapons to use.

Of the gladiatorial style the only thing it gives over the warrior style is really the trident, the net and the morningstar.

 

[DamonJynx]

Of the gladiatorial style the only thing it gives over the warrior style is really the trident, the net and the morningstar.

Did you miss this bit? "This style teaches the use of all the following weapons
in any combination."

The Warrior style only provides 1H Axe, 1H Sword and 1H Spear + Shield combos, 3 styles vs. a multitude.

There is definitely no pleasing some people :wink:

 

[Mixster]

Of the gladiatorial style the only thing it gives over the warrior style is really the trident, the net and the morningstar.

Did you miss this bit? "This style teaches the use of all the following weapons
in any combination."

The Warrior style only provides 1H Axe, 1H Sword and 1H Spear + Shield combos, 3 styles vs. a multitude.

There is definitely no pleasing some people :wink:

Heh, yeah, I know.

But the gladiatorial style gives profession with a lot of individual weapons, while the warrior style is much broader. A warrior could use a hoplon shield in one of his hands, then use a javelin for ranged, a hatchet axe for medium range, and change it up with a short-spear or a longsword when getting closed upon.

The "best" combination of Gladiatorial weapons is probably the Morningstar + Targe or Trident + Net combo. Both of which at best yields you a large weapon for defending, meaning you have trouble coping with attacks from huge weapons.

Tl;DR: Warrior gives a huge parrying weapon, gladiatorial doesn't.