Combat Reactions

[hdan]

I understand the rules as written. I'm considering adding some house rules:

Dodge DM: -1 and DexMod. Still get the additional -1 if you dodge into cover.

Parry DM: -Melee and either StrMod or DexMod, whichever the attacker is using in the attack.

The logic:

Dodge should depend at least partially on dexterity. This might prove too deadly for clumsy characters, but I think it's warranted. (They should be disadvantaged - use more armor!) High Dex characters will be able to move so fast that they're hard to get a bead on. Combat Drug and BattleDress would be an even more potent combo - you always get a free -1 or better per round, which even if it doesn't block the shot, reduces the effect.

(Max human dodge - Dex of 12 + 4 (Battle Dress), In Cover = -5. That would be Very Difficult to Formidable to hit. But a competent character similarly equipped would be firing at at least +5 (+2 skill, +3 Dex bonus for 12+4 Dex) so it seems fair. It's all down to tactical factors and luck.)

Parry: Same as normal, but if the attacker is using +StrMod, you can counter with your own StrMod. Likewise for DexMod. This way, your mighty-thewed barbarian can parry forcefully against huge beasts, though he might not fare as well against a swift rapier attack, and will have to rely on his skill alone for that.

Comments?

 

[rust]

I think the character should have the choice whether to use his Str mod
or his Dex mod for a parry.

Unless the attacker's weapon has so much more mass than the defen-
der's weapon that a parry becomes impossible (e.g. a mace against a
foil), someone with a high Dex and skill with his weapon should be just
as able to parry the attack as someone with a high Str, while someone
with a high Str, a heavy weapon and at least a little Dex can always try
to "sweep aside" an attacker's weapon of the same or less mass, even
if this attacker has and uses a better Dex.

 

[Kromodor]

Sounds logical.

However keep in mind another game-balance point of view.

If Dex gives defense (in Dodge or Parry terms), it will become the most valuable stat in combat. It will be the ultimate attack and defense stat.

Even without such boost, it's pretty valuable.

Also, ranged combat, has other modifiers that can be manipulated and almost each of them have negative DM to the attack.

Imagine shooting someone with 12 Dex, prone behind cover, through dense smoke, that dodges.

+2 from Cover
+2 from Prone
+2 from Dodge behind cover
+2 from dense smoke
+2 from Dex

=You need to beat 18.

--
For Parry, on the other hand, it looks logical as Parry doesn't have such modifiers.

 

[Ommadawn]

Imagine shooting someone with 12 Dex, prone behind cover, through dense smoke, that dodges.

+2 from Cover
+2 from Prone
+2 from Dodge behind cover
+2 from dense smoke
+2 from Dex

=You need to beat 18.

I understand your concerns but given the above scenario, shouldn't you be effectively impossible to hit? A crack shot marksman in ideal circumstances may have a chance, but in that position you should be safe from fire, at least in my humble opinion.

 

[Kromodor]

Indeed good Sir,

not to mention - range modifiers


My idea is, merely, to give a hint, that tinkering with the combat mechanics may result in different balance curve than the default game design.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Imagine shooting someone with 12 Dex, prone behind cover, through dense smoke, that dodges.

+2 from Cover
+2 from Prone
+2 from Dodge behind cover
+2 from dense smoke
+2 from Dex

=You need to beat 18.

Always interesting to see how different people interpret RAW! I see some of these as mutually exclusive, if you are prone in cover (i.e. a trench) you cannot get shot at , or see out, so you count one or the other if you want to shoot or see yourself. As regards dodging, if you dodge round the corner, count the -2 DM for dodging, but not the -2 for the wall (you could have been shot at before you moved out of LOS.

On the other hand, the -2 for dense smoke always seemed too modest, in reality you cannot see through thick smoke, and fire through it is going to be unaimed and speculative.

As regard the Dex adjustment, see next post!

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

I understand the rules as written. I'm considering adding some house rules:

Dodge DM: -1 and DexMod. Still get the additional -1 if you dodge into cover.

Parry DM: -Melee and either StrMod or DexMod, whichever the attacker is using in the attack.

The logic:

Dodge should depend at least partially on dexterity. This might prove too deadly for clumsy characters, but I think it's warranted. (They should be disadvantaged - use more armor!) High Dex characters will be able to move so fast that they're hard to get a bead on. Combat Drug and BattleDress would be an even more potent combo - you always get a free -1 or better per round, which even if it doesn't block the shot, reduces the effect.

(Max human dodge - Dex of 12 + 4 (Battle Dress), In Cover = -5. That would be Very Difficult to Formidable to hit. But a competent character similarly equipped would be firing at at least +5 (+2 skill, +3 Dex bonus for 12+4 Dex) so it seems fair. It's all down to tactical factors and luck.)

Parry: Same as normal, but if the attacker is using +StrMod, you can counter with your own StrMod. Likewise for DexMod. This way, your mighty-thewed barbarian can parry forcefully against huge beasts, though he might not fare as well against a swift rapier attack, and will have to rely on his skill alone for that.

Comments?

I can see where you are coming from with this, but in regard to dodge think that counting the Dex DM makes it too powerful, and against a slug or energy beam I am not convinced that a prima ballerina will have the flexibility to dodge to that standard. What I can see a case for is counting the Dex DM against the initiative loss caused by dodging, reflecting a greater ability to recover self after an unexpected movement.

In regards to parry, a bit tough of those with a poor Dex, if they parry they might be easier to hit than if they don't bother, surely not your intent!

I generally house rule mellee as opposed rolls (but you can only inflict damage on your attack), and allow a +2 DM if you state that you are forgoing your attack.

Egil

 

[hdan]

I can see where you are coming from with this, but in regard to dodge think that counting the Dex DM makes it too powerful, and against a slug or energy beam I am not convinced that a prima ballerina will have the flexibility to dodge to that standard. What I can see a case for is counting the Dex DM against the initiative loss caused by dodging, reflecting a greater ability to recover self after an unexpected movement.

I imagine Dodge as being more like "evasive maneuvers", since it's demonstrably impossible for a human to dodge a firearm of any sort, let alone an energy weapon. I admit that my view on this is more Hollywood and less reality, but I tend to like my games a bit more action-movie style.

However, I really like your idea of Dex bonus reducting the initiative loss due to dodging. It also fits in logically with the Combat Drug effects. And someone with 8+ Dex wearing Battle Dress could dodge without initiative penalty, though of course they'd still take skill check penalty.

In regards to parry, a bit tough of those with a poor Dex, if they parry they might be easier to hit than if they don't bother, surely not your intent!

I generally house rule mellee as opposed rolls (but you can only inflict damage on your attack), and allow a +2 DM if you state that you are forgoing your attack.

Egil

LOL, yeah, the negative stat mod is always a problem. I originally planned to cap the "penalty" at zero, but that seems unfair in a way - if you really have bad Dex, you *should* be clumsy and more likely to move the wrong way at the wrong time. Really low-Dex characters would do well to get good armor.

I'm not that happy with the "strike/counterstrike" flow of standard melee either. CT's system wasn't much better, but you always applied your Melee skill as a negative DM against an attacker, so it was sort of an opposed check, after a fashion.

I think the opposed check for melee is a good idea, and I'm going to try that out. Melee isn't the usual combat mode for my players, but (as might be obvious) I'm planning a few encounters where it will be more important.

How do you handle effect for the attack's damage? Do you take the effect of the attacker's roll, or the difference in effects between the players?

 

[DFW]

Comments?

I like the mechanisms. But, the mods are too far from reality. Makes one way harder to hit than would be possible.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

How do you handle effect for the attack's damage? Do you take the effect of the attacker's roll, or the difference in effects between the players?

I base the effect on the players roll, per point above 8.

So, A attacks B with a knife, A's adjusted score is 6, B's is also 6, but A misses anyway, as A's score is under 8.

B responds, adjusted score of 11, but A gets a 12, so the blow is blocked.

A attacks again, this time adjusted score of 10, B's is 6, so A inflicts dam + effect 2,

etc

Egil

 

[hdan]

I base the effect on the players roll, per point above 8.

Makes sense. Melee always seemed more like a "team sport" to me, so I think I'll use this system instead of the standard "blows".