Combat: initiative, opponent numbers, and lethality

[apoc527]

Hoping to get some feedback from those who've got experience Refing MGT.

First, who uses dynamic initiative exactly as described in the book? I'm thinking that I'm going to try to use it, and I have an idea to track it. Basically, I'm going to have each PC haul out a d20 and use that to track current initiative. I'll keep a d20 for each important NPC and each NPC important enough to have his own initiative count. Seems like it might work.

Second, how many bad guys should there be to make a fight challenging, but not overly tough? 1:1? 2:1? What level of skill should the bad guys have compared to the PCs? How quickly do bad guys go down? How quickly do PCs go down?

Finally, how often do PCs actually die instead of merely fall unconscious? The system seems quite deadly with 2-3 hits possibly being quite lethal, even through armor.

Thanks!

 

[BP]

1) Dynamic initiative affects one round only.

2) Depends on what the PCs have in the way of armour, weapons, stat DMs, skill levels - and on the environment of the encounter (i.e.- is there cover - is the range a factor giving one side or the other an advantage based on their weapons - etc.)

3) 2-3 hits might be lethal yes - if they aren't avoided! If your PCs are gonna stand out in the open and spend all their reactions on offense - they might (should) be in trouble. Traveller isn't really designed for hack-n-slash combat with invincible superheros. Players need to know when to close range and when to run. And value their wounded before they become a memory!

Players should have an idea of how to avoid a fight (skills related to such) and when in a fight, how to take maximum defensive advantage as well as how to shoot up the setting... Go over things like Cover, Stance, Moving, Dodging, and leveraging Range.

Ultimately - PCs only die when the Referee decides they do - not the dice and not any stock rules. Before actually playing combat in a real setting - why not mock one up - and get the players to practice with you first. This can be a fun exercise in char gen - have each player generate more than one (like with various term limits, or handout skills) so they can get a feel for the 'variables' involved.

All players should experience PC death. A game were PCs don't die, ever, can become ho-hum. A balance where PCs still take risks - but calculated ones - is the goal. I find (initially) having players play multiple low 'level' PCs in a deadly adventure helps avoid 'PC Attachment Syndrome'.

 

[apoc527]

I realize that Dynamic Initiative only lasts for one round, but it seems like it still behooves you to keep track. For example, if I start combat with Initiative 10, and someone goes before me forcing me to React once (-2 Initiative). My Initiative is now 8. Then I fire my weapon on full auto and suffer 3 points of initiative loss. I assume this comes off of my 10 for next round, meaning I start at Initiative 7. Is there an argument to be made that it comes off the 8 I have after reacting once? I guess that wouldn't make much sense.

Let's say after firing the weapon on full auto, that I then React twice more, reducing my initiative by 4 more, down to 3. Can I react two more times in the following round, reducing my initiative to -1? Can I still act? Should there be a hard limit that Initiative can't go below 0? Does anyone find in practice that unlimited reactions is a problem mechanic or does it tend to take care of itself, given that after 4 reactions or so, you won't be succeeding at much of anything...

 

[BP]

I realize that Dynamic Initiative only lasts for one round, but it seems like it still behooves you to keep track.
Wasn't saying otherwise - just making sure that was clear. As to using a D20 - that may prove insufficient (see below). Besides not handling negative numbers, initiative could go above 20!

For example, if I start combat with Initiative 10, and someone goes before me forcing me to React once (-2 Initiative). My Initiative is now 8.
Yep - meaning anyone who was behind you before with a 9, now can 'go' before you (like fire first). Any ties need to be determined at the time - i.e. if someone else has an 8, then wait for 9 to go first, since you may be reduced to 7 and there is no tie breaking for the 8 one needed.

Then I fire my weapon on full auto and suffer 3 points of initiative loss. I assume this comes off of my 10 for next round, meaning I start at Initiative 7.
Correct - but no need to assume, the book states (pg 61) - 'is applied to your initiative next round'.

Let's say after firing the weapon on full auto, that I then React twice more, reducing my initiative by 4 more, down to 3. Can I react two more times in the following round, reducing my initiative to -1?
There are no limits on reactions... so yes. (I also allow for reactions 'while' firing to reduce To Hit (and Damage effect addition) in the event of simultaneous reaction.)

Can I still act? Should there be a hard limit that Initiative can't go below 0? Does anyone find in practice that unlimited reactions is a problem mechanic or does it tend to take care of itself, given that after 4 reactions or so, you won't be succeeding at much of anything...
One would be succeeding - like at dodging! Also, especially with DMs, -4 penalty doesn't mean other checks won't work - just harder.

As to unlimited reactions and negative initiative - the book explicitly states the former, and doesn't address the latter. Consider, though, that having a negative initiative can easily happen if, say, your initial roll was a 2! Two reactions and you are at -2. Mechanics wise, initiative is simply the order of combat - so negative numbers are just lower in the sequence.

However, to me, if one is being shot at by a bunch of attackers (say a firing squad), it seems reactions should be limited at somepoint. Though, that would allow for comical and dramatic roleplay! In melee, however, space is limited to the body of the victim - so unlimited reactions seem reasonable - more so than unlimited attacks (in 6 seconds). Watch an Aikido master for an example!

But, as an RPG, combat is meant to be roleplayed instead of just simulated. So rules are just for normal situations - referee discretion should always be applied for exceptional (or just desired) circumstances!

 

[DeadMike]

2) Depends on what the PCs have in the way of armour, weapons, stat DMs, skill levels - and on the environment of the encounter (i.e.- is there cover - is the range a factor giving one side or the other an advantage based on their weapons - etc.)

Players should have an idea of how to avoid a fight (skills related to such) and when in a fight, how to take maximum defensive advantage as well as how to shoot up the setting... Go over things like Cover, Stance, Moving, Dodging, and leveraging Range.

I am not a GM, but a player that was semi new to Traveller and totally new to MGT. What my GM did was set up a combat with the characters and some generic enemies before we started playing so that player who were experienced RPGers, but new to this system could see how it works and know that charging out screaming was a death warrant. He also set us up with a ship and various enemy ships to experience what ship combat was like before we even had access to a ship. Also something that was extremely helpful. Something that, I found is helpful for GM's and players alike who are new to a game system.

 

[rinku]

The Mongoose Traveller ruleset has devalued armour quite a lot from previous ones. The new combat sytem is otherwise excellent, but you may find you need to adjust the stated armour values upward.

The armour ratings they have used are pretty much the same ratings used in the system used in MegaTraveller, itself derived from the system used in Snapshot and Azhanti High Lightning, which were designed for mass tactical combats with a few dozen combatants.

However, armour there was NOT used to directly block damage, but used in comparison to the weapon's penetration value. Only if the weapon had enough punch to penetrate were any damage points assigned, either full damage for a high penetration hit, or half damage for a low-penetration hit.

I never much liked the way this was implemented - it always worked far better for vehicles than for characters and meant that most characters could make themselves pretty much small-arms proof by wearing vacc-suits. Mongoose may have reverted too far the other way, with low armour values as well as bonus damage.

I'm working on my own take on what numbers will work best, but the current ones smack of a lazy port to me. Ideally: Mesh will give good protection vs blades but mediocre protection vs bullets; Cloth will give good protection vs bullets and average protection vs blades; Combat Armour gives excellent protection against everything and Battledress requires heavy weapons to deal with. No set from MegaTraveller onwards (apart from GURPS, I guess) has really dealt with the difference between bullets and blades very well.

Having said all this, I am new to this ruleset and I could be overreacting. I'll know after I've run a few more combats.

In relation to the original question about numbers - Traveller fire combat has always been dangerous. The game has never rewarded players for just killing things, apart from any monetary or plot related reward they might gain. In general, you avoid casual combat because the rewards do not compensate for the risks. Also, even the most highly skilled, stat heavy character in Traveller is not an unstoppable fighting machine (unless he's got the right military equipment and his opponents do not...).

This is in marked contrast to RPGs descended from D&D. (about the only thing Traveller has in common with D&D is that you roll dice to determine characteristics. Even then it's 2D6 instead of 3D6, a totally different distribution).

Base your opposition on the equipment the players have and their tactical position more than their numbers. And it's usually best to give a talking option before the bullets start flying.

 

[Halfbat]

Back to the original post -

Numbers are highly dependent on situation and weaponry. I tend to have NPCs as average stats, with a specific or limited range of skills, occasionally bumping a leader or notable individual up with good stats to give bonuses to some skills. This is, as far as my experience goes, a fairly common practice (it does take long to 'properly' generate a full character, after all!). As a result, a few, capable characters armed with higher-tech weaponry can face up to 2-3 times their number armed with primitive pistols and muskets. Indeed, there's no problem using 'mook' rules if you want to give the impression of overwhelming numbers....

Irrespective of that, though, I also have to second what was said above: ime Traveller is, and always has been, really tough on a PC group that does nothing but fight. Combat _is_ lethal, with characters acting stupidly quickly becoming unconscious (or worse). That's part of it, and something that drives and shapes Traveller encounters and campaigns.

Reactions tend to act as their own limiter: react as much as you want but too many reactions quickly leads to 'incompetence'. I tend to track Initiative on paper, so the initial initiative is clear, but very often, in most combat, everyone ends up resequencing themselves back into their original order after a round of combat anyway!

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[Side note: Armour certainly could react in multiple different ways depending on the weapon hitting it. It may be worth thinking this through carefully though, as a suit of armour may react in multiple different ways to bullet/arrow impact, slicing, smashing, high-energy, coherent light, etc, etc. Yes, it would be more realistic, but the tracking and comparing quickly becomes tedious and leads to PCs having to buy multiple different types of armour and selecting the best for the current job/TL in hand anyway (ime of similar systems, that is, but maybe it's worth doing once). The single restriction may be an abstraction, but it is, at least, usable.]

 

[apoc527]

So about the armor values, do people have an ongoing issue with them? Golan's old armor thread with the poll hasn't seen action in a long time, but now that CSC has been out for a while, what do people think of the as written armor numbers?

Rinku seems concerned, but what about everyone else?