Cloaking Condors

[nekomata fuyu]

So, it's just dawned on me that when a Condor cloaks, it loses the ability to turn (at least without coming to a complete halt every time it want to make any minor course adjustments).

Has anyone here been using cloaked Condors, and have you been running into any problems with this?

 

[tneva82]

So, it's just dawned on me that when a Condor cloaks, it loses the ability to turn (at least without coming to a complete halt every time it want to make any minor course adjustments).

Has anyone here been using cloaked Condors, and have you been running into any problems with this?

Yeah. Lumbering beast

Not sure I can see much of point for it though at least now that KC9R got it's ph-1 banks nerfed there's that. For 30 pts more you get better turn(critically getting that 6), better shields(okay 6 less but klingon rule more than compensates. It's still nice 30) and more damage.

Though albeitly condor does have ph-3 banks for drone/plasma defence which is nice. And now it has easier time to pour more ph-1 fire.

I think condor's cloak is REALLY opportunistic. Most of the time if your game plan revolves around cloaking take KC9R. Condor is more appropriate if you plan to start decloaked(and even there I might just take the KC9R provided I have 30 points to spare).

 

[Trenchbucket]

Don't forget the decloak rule allows it to turn 45 degrees once it decloaks which i believ overides its turn rule. still a capable ship best used as a ram against fleets.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Don't forget the decloak rule allows it to turn 45 degrees once it decloaks which i believ overides its turn rule. still a capable ship best used as a ram against fleets.

Aye, but that's when decloaking, not when cloaked

It just strikes me as "off" that a ship cannot turn if cruising along under cloak.

 

[Sgt_G]

My thought is that any ship should always be able to make one 45-deg turn at the end of its movement, unless it has already turned sooner and doesn't have movement left for a second (or third) turn.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

My thought is that any ship should always be able to make one 45-deg turn at the end of its movement, unless it has already turned sooner and doesn't have movement left for a second (or third) turn.

This would be my prefered solution. Basically, ships can still turn whilst moving slowly, but don't have as much control in the matter. Also, the more slowly turning ships don't suffer the effect of "Oh no, we've lost a small amount of forward thrust! We can never turn again!!"

 

[dinnermeat]

I really don't see the point to take it vs the KC9R, turn 9 is just terrible I'd rather pay a little extra for the better ship.

 

[Da Boss]

My thought is that any ship should always be able to make one 45-deg turn at the end of its movement, unless it has already turned sooner and doesn't have movement left for a second (or third) turn.

Soo pretty much the previous editions "lumbering" then............

may only make a single turn during a Movement Phase, and may never make more under any circumstances. In addition, the ship may not move forward any further after making this turn.

although SF ships can always just remian still and pivot 45 degrees, previous versions had to all stop and then All stop and pivot to manage that.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Soo pretty much the previous editions "lumbering" then............

Very different actually.
Lumbering was that once you make a turn you must stop moving. Namely, it imposed a limitation on movement. This rule would say that one you finish your movement, you can choose to make a turn if you haven't already done so. Namely, it grants an additional option for movement.

 

[Ben2]

I'd do KC9R everytime anyway, because the model is so much nicer. We'll also have to see how the Vulture looks in the flesh.

 

[archon96]

One thought is hold the Condor back a bit send the rest of the force forward. If they turn to deal with the other forces theyve left their backside facinf the condor. If they dont turn then alot of aft hits.

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

Soo pretty much the previous editions "lumbering" then............

Very different actually.
Lumbering was that once you make a turn you must stop moving. Namely, it imposed a limitation on movement. This rule would say that one you finish your movement, you can choose to make a turn if you haven't already done so. Namely, it grants an additional option for movement.

so the ship i question gets to have a variable turn rating then, as it just needs to move 6" ahead and stop, then turn. If your suggestion is just for cloaked vessels, only one comment - why ? the uncloaking action gives a non-distance related turn, which with the reposition ability can be quite scary. Gorn and Kzinti dreadnought wouldn't have this option (no cloak).

Maybe it's not that the ships don't move far/fast enough, it's the turn modes/values are too great (a jump from 6 to 9 is 50% more), and then you've got Federation Dreadnougts that maneuver like cruisers - as good as the Klingon ships. The removal of lumbering was needed, but it has effectively totally unbalanced the current dreadnoughts in the game, as they either 'wallow' or are 'supercruisers' in regard to tactical movement.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

In my mind, the problem is that ACTA-SF copes poorly with turning for vessels moving slower than their turn rating. This just becomes most apparent in ships with higher rating.

In effect, what my suggestion would do is say "You can turn when moving slowly, but not particularly well." This is in contrast to the current system that effectively says "If you move too slowly, you're effectively adrift."

 

[Sgt_G]

so the ship in question gets to have a variable turn rating then, as it just needs to move 6" ahead and stop, then turn. If your suggestion is just for cloaked vessels, only one comment - why ? the uncloaking action gives a non-distance related turn

No, not just for cloaked ships ... any ship that doesn't have enough movement to make a turn under normal rules. I.e., ships with turn mode of 9" that can only move 6" due to, say, Reload Weapons or Overload Weapons, would still get one 45-deg turn.

Yes, de-cloaking allows for a 45-deg turn (actually, a change in heading, not a true turn), but as noted the Condor cannot turn while cloaked, and usually has to fly under cloak for at least two game-turns to reload weapons. Not being able to turn at all while under cloak is pretty severe.


In SFB & FedCmdr, one can slow down to make a tighter turn, but ACTA doesn't allow that. I had previously suggested allow a ship to move at least one-half of its turn-mode movement between turning, but that would count as if the ship had moved the full distance. Example, a Fed CA with turn-mode of 6" and total movement of 12" would be allowed to move 3", turn 45-deg, move 3" more, and turn another 45-deg, and then stop. Each of the 3" moves would count as 6" against total movmement allowance of 12" max. Even tho the ship actually moved only 6" on the table, it has used up its entire 12" movement allowance. The ship could NOT move 9", turn, move 3" and turn again, because that would need 15" of movement.

 

[Da Boss]

Not being able to turn at all while under cloak is pretty severe.

It can turn whilst under cloak its just can't move and turn

 

[Asguard101]

I think the best solution would be to add a rule that says:

"Any ship no matter its turn rating may make one 45 turn at the end of its movement, if it has not taken any turns during its movement."

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Not being able to turn at all while under cloak is pretty severe.

It can turn whilst under cloak its just can't move and turn

In a game with so few rounds, having to move a little and turn on alternate rounds is just as bad.

I think the best solution would be to add a rule that says:

"Any ship no matter its turn rating may make one 45 turn at the end of its movement, if it has not taken any turns during its movement."

That's a short, concise rule which I think sums it all up.

 

[Da Boss]

Soo pretty much the previous editions "lumbering" then............

Very different actually.
Lumbering was that once you make a turn you must stop moving. Namely, it imposed a limitation on movement. This rule would say that one you finish your movement, you can choose to make a turn if you haven't already done so. Namely, it grants an additional option for movement.

so the ship i question gets to have a variable turn rating then, as it just needs to move 6" ahead and stop, then turn. If your suggestion is just for cloaked vessels, only one comment - why ? the uncloaking action gives a non-distance related turn, which with the reposition ability can be quite scary. Gorn and Kzinti dreadnought wouldn't have this option (no cloak).

Maybe it's not that the ships don't move far/fast enough, it's the turn modes/values are too great (a jump from 6 to 9 is 50% more), and then you've got Federation Dreadnougts that maneuver like cruisers - as good as the Klingon ships. The removal of lumbering was needed, but it has effectively totally unbalanced the current dreadnoughts in the game, as they either 'wallow' or are 'supercruisers' in regard to tactical movement.

I tend to agree - the Fed Dreadnought was a huge winner when this change happened...........

Of course if you freely allow all ships to always get a turn - then power drain is less of an issue as you always get to turn.... This would also be something need to decide if the suggestion by Sgt G would count towards fulfilling powerdrains 6" move restirction or not - I would hope not.......

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Of course if you freely allow all ships to always get a turn - then power drain is less of an issue as you always get to turn.... This would also be something need to decide if the suggestion by Sgt G would count towards fulfilling powerdrains 6" move restirction or not - I would hope not.......

That's like saying that the current mechanic (the power drain effect on turning) should stay broken. Not slowed to a snail's pace is enough of a restriction for power drain I think. Either that or ban all ships from turning as part of the restriction.

 

[Da Boss]

I was just pointing out that this will change other things - perhaps unintentionally as otehr ships will also take advantage of new rules rather than just the intended Romulan Dreadnought?

I was not aware that power drain was broken or that was what was being discussed?

I also thought that the whole reason that the movement / turning system changed was to be more SFU style - that it was important to move fast or you died?

Sgt G suggestion said this:
In SFB & FedCmdr, one can slow down to make a tighter turn, but ACTA doesn't allow that. I had previously suggested allow a ship to move at least one-half of its turn-mode movement between turning, but that would count as if the ship had moved the full distance. Example, a Fed CA with turn-mode of 6" and total movement of 12" would be allowed to move 3", turn 45-deg, move 3" more, and turn another 45-deg, and then stop. Each of the 3" moves would count as 6" against total movmement allowance of 12" max. Even tho the ship actually moved only 6" on the table, it has used up its entire 12" movement allowance.

If you allow this to fulfill 6" move power drain restricition - surely you are just making everyones ships vastly more agile and also removing part of the point of the restriction?