Clarifying Spells - Summonings to learn

[slaughterj]

When somone casts a spell that Summons a Demon to learn, e.g., Master-Words and Signs or Demonic Pact, how long is the demon present and teaching? What happens when the barbarian busts into the room while the demon is there teaching? Does the demon stay and kick some ass? Does it vanish into a poof of smoke and the information isn't learned?

 

[sbarrie]

I imagine when summoning a demon to teach, a sorcerer takes a lot of precautions to prevent the demon from hurting anybody or generally running amuck.

If the demon is released from these precautions (wards, promises, etc), it may be just as inclined to molest the sorcerer as tackle the barbarian. Only a desperate sorcerer or ignorant barbarian would deliberately release the demon.

If it is not released, I think it would stay and watch. Roleplaying demons can be a lot of fun, don't just use them as game mechanisms.

 

[slaughterj]

I'd like to see all this spelled out somewhere. Nothing is said in those spell descriptions about wards, preparations, etc., though those spells offer enough time to be doing such. However, spells such as Summon Demon don't provide that kind of preparation time, so it's not clear that those preparations would be needed for the Demonic Pact teaching summoning in comparison with the Summon Demon "protect me" summoning. And if those wards, precautions, etc. exist and can be disturbed, we should have some information on that - anything in Scrolls of Skelos? And if a sorceror could summon a demon but then just recklessly release it, that should be discussed as well.

 

[René]

And if those wards, precautions, etc. exist and can be disturbed, we should have some information on that - anything in Scrolls of Skelos?

No, there isn't.
Even if I like precise rules generally, regarding demons there isn't so much need for them imho. The demons are so strange and alien, that the GM should use them as a wildcard without any rule restrictions. Rules would take the unpredictable nad the mystery away.
Of course I'm in the fortunate situation that none of my players plays a Scholar (we agreed they are an element better left in the hands of the GM), so I'm totally free in handling demons.

 

[slaughterj]

And if those wards, precautions, etc. exist and can be disturbed, we should have some information on that - anything in Scrolls of Skelos?

No, there isn't.
Even if I like precise rules generally, regarding demons there isn't so much need for them imho. The demons are so strange and alien, that the GM should use them as a wildcard without any rule restrictions. Rules would take the unpredictable nad the mystery away.
Of course I'm in the fortunate situation that none of my players plays a Scholar (we agreed they are an element better left in the hands of the GM), so I'm totally free in handling demons.

I don't know that every little aspect needs to be spelled out (pun intended), but some direction as to what does or can happen in the instances I have mentioned would be good to know. For instance, if the sorceror knows he might be attacked, but knows he can summon a demon to teach him and have the demon fight the attackers if interrupted, he might be more willing to do so, than if the sorceror thinks he might be attacked, and the spell simply fails (demon vanishes), wasting it and resulting in unnecessary corruption. Mongoose can simply say "these are the options, you the GM can choose" or "this is what happens" or something else, but having some guidelines (not necessarily rules) to know what to do in such circumstances would be helpful and informative.

 

[argo]

When summoned to teach a new spell/style the summoned demon remains as long as is required to impart the knolwedge of the spell to the scholar.

The duration of demonic pact will always be sufficient fo the sorcerer to learn the new spell from the demon.

How long learning new spells takes is never specified, being one of those things that is usuall assumed to occur "off screen". Basically however long you as the GM wants.

The spell makes no mention of any restictions, such as summoning circles or the like, being placed on the demon. The only restriction mentioned is that he departs at the end of the spells duration since it is the spells magic that is allowing him to remain. The demon of a demonic pact spell should be a special character, a NPC that the DM puts some thought into, and probably more powerful than the scholar who is calling him. The spell says that if you summon the demon for some task besides learning a new spell that

the sorcerer can call up the demon by casting demonic pact and make a deal that it will perform a specific task for him ... such a task is always at the demon's discretion

In other words the scholar has to deal with his demon to get it to do something. The demon does not have to agree if he does not want to but if he does not agree to any task the spell ends and he goes home. If he does agree to a task he is bound to follow the letter of the agreement

because it is a demon, it may well attempt to twist the sorcorer's words, so that it performs to the letter but not the spirit of the task.

Once a task is agreed upon the only way to give the demon a new task is to summon him again.

So what happens if something unexpected happens while a demon is present such as a barbarian kicking in the door? The demon is bound to perform his task to the letter, if nobody can convince the demon (or he can't convince himself) that new action still falls within the letter of the agreement then he cannot and will not take any action. For example: if a demon was summoned to teach a spell his task is "teach me the ______ spell". When the barbarian comes kicking in the door the demon may, depending on his temperment, sit back and watch the fun until the scholar argues that he cannot finish learning the spell until the barbarian is gone and so the demon must dispatch the barbarian in order to complete his task. At this point the GM will conisder the demon's temperment and relationship with the scholar and either decide that the demon will help the scholar kill the barbarian or respond "My job is to teach you the spell, not provide a suitable environment for learning. I will be waiting here to finish the lesson if and when you finish dealing with the intruder". As you can see there may be some advantages to giving a demon vague instructions that are open to intrepretation, then again there are disadvantages as well :twisted:

Above all remember that the demon of a demonic pact spell is an inteligent creature with free will and malicious intent. He does have a long-term bargain with the pact-holder and is compelled to complete the letter of any task he agrees to and then leave at the end of the duration of the spell but otherwise he is an independent agent.

It is a generally accepted fact that any creature may defend itself if attacked regardless of whatever other restrictions may have been placed on it.

One more thing. The scholar who learns Master Words and Signs does not summon that demon to learn new spells (after the first time he learns the master words from it) or indeed to perform any future task.

Once you have successfully cast this spell once, you no longer have any particular need to cast it again.

Hope that helps.

 

[slaughterj]

Lots of interesting points, I'll consider.

The duration of demonic pact will always be sufficient fo the sorcerer to learn the new spell from the demon.

How long learning new spells takes is never specified, being one of those things that is usuall assumed to occur "off screen". Basically however long you as the GM wants.

This was something I meant to mention, and is one of my concerns. Just something basic from Mongoose, e.g. "it takes a couple hours to teach a spell" would be useful to know. Also, it would be useful to know if the barbarian attacks the demon, does that interrupt the spell and the demon can or must vanish, or does that enable the demon to stick around, fight back, go outside the tower and take a piss, or what?

 

[argo]

The demon stays however long it takes to finish teaching the spell, if being interupted means they have to start over they start over. Weither or not the demon can or will do anything else besides teach while he is there depends on the temperment of the demon and how well the demon and scholar in question can lawyer the exact meaning of the demon's obligation as in my example above ("you are obligated to protect me so you can finish teaching me later" "I'm under no such burden, when you are finished come back and I will resume my lesson").

Note that a demon teaching a spell is a special case. If the demon is called for some other task the spell will expire after 1 hour/scholar level or when the task is finished, whichever comes first.

If the scholar is killed by the barbarian before the demon finishes his task then the Rule of Impremenance kicks in, the pact is voided, the spell ends and the demon goes home. Probably to collect the scholar's soul for eternal torture.

As for learning new spells, I don't mind that we are given no guidlines on how long that takes. One of the things about DnD magic that makes it so stale is that everything is spelled out explicitly. Magic opperates more like an alternate set of physical law and results are too predictable. The DM should decide beforehand how long learning any given spell takes (if it is even relevant) but I like the idea that different scholars take different ammounts of time to learn spells... perhaps even to learn the same spell depending on weithere they learn some convoluted version of the spell from their Master or get a direct-from-the-source version from some demon!

YMMV

 

[slaughterj]

As for learning new spells, I don't mind that we are given no guidlines on how long that takes. One of the things about DnD magic that makes it so stale is that everything is spelled out explicitly. Magic opperates more like an alternate set of physical law and results are too predictable. The DM should decide beforehand how long learning any given spell takes (if it is even relevant) but I like the idea that different scholars take different ammounts of time to learn spells... perhaps even to learn the same spell depending on weithere they learn some convoluted version of the spell from their Master or get a direct-from-the-source version from some demon!

YMMV

I understand what you mean in comparison with D&D, but some guidelines or a listing of potential options to consider would be extremely useful for a GM, especially because a character could ask such questions based on a Knowledge (Arcana) check, and roll well enough that some questions should be answered - even if it is to say, things may vary. A scholar should have *some* idea of how long it will take to learn a spell that he summons the demon to have teach him, as he needs to plan other activities, like controlling the local king, meeting with lackeys, etc.

 

[sbarrie]

The DM should decide beforehand how long learning any given spell takes (if it is even relevant) but I like the idea that different scholars take different ammounts of time to learn spells... perhaps even to learn the same spell depending on weithere they learn some convoluted version of the spell from their Master or get a direct-from-the-source version from some demon!

It may take different times depending on which demon you summon too. The GM could provide the player with a list of different entities, and estimates on how communicable, powerful, benevolent and corrupting each one is.

Actually, I should get off my butt and do that myself ASAP...