Cimmeria contents

Demetrio said:
the occasional aberration

first in 60 years

You are free to view that as you will. To me it seems to imply a frequency of occurence that I don't like.

How many 'Queen Elizabeth' type figures have there been, and how far apart are they spaced? Sixty years is within two or three past chiefs in my way of thinking. I don't consider twentyfive or thirty percent an aberration.
 
Unless 'born on the battlefield' was a figure of speech (which im guessing it wasnt)

Its totally plausable that Conans mother was out there kickin some behind.

one would say that she was winning or won also due to the fact that she had to give birth and i'm sure mid fight that would be kind of difficult.

One can only speculate :)
 
How many 'Queen Elizabeth' type figures have there been, and how far apart are they spaced?

You're looking at the wrong period for a start. Better to consider the Celtic tribes on whom the Cimmerians are loosley based rather than post Medieval Britain. Cartimandua and Boudicca led different tribes. Cartimandua ruled from about AD42-69. Boudicca ruled from the late 50s to AD 61. They were exact contemporaries. And they are easily two of the three most famous British leaders of that period.
 
Vortigern said:
Demetrio said:
the occasional aberration

first in 60 years

You are free to view that as you will. To me it seems to imply a frequency of occurence that I don't like.

How many 'Queen Elizabeth' type figures have there been, and how far apart are they spaced? Sixty years is within two or three past chiefs in my way of thinking. I don't consider twentyfive or thirty percent an aberration.

Not the first female chief of that tribe in sixty years though is it? The first female Cimmerian chieftain of any tribe in sixty years I read it as, which is not unreasonable. The Romans constantly made a point of the fact that Gaulish and British women fought alongside the men, Hyborians in Howards own work mention Cimmerian women bearing arms, and among the historical Celtic peoples on whom Cimmerians are loosley based, women rulers were not standard, but were far from uncommon or unheard of "abberations".

Edit. The Howard reference is this passage from Black Colossus:

Amalric twisted his yellow mustache to hide a grin. Evidently Conan supposed Yasmela intended to strap on a sword and take part in the actual fighting, as the barbarian women often fought.

"The women of the Hyborians do not fight like your Cimmerian women, Conan,"
 
Amalric twisted his yellow mustache to hide a grin. Evidently Conan supposed Yasmela intended to strap on a sword and take part in the actual fighting, as the barbarian women often fought.

"The women of the Hyborians do not fight like your Cimmerian women, Conan,"

That's the quote I was thinking of. Thanks.

The Romans constantly made a point of the fact that Gaulish and British women fought alongside the men

I'm not so sure about that actually. There is some mention of women being present during battles in Britain but none that I can recall mention them actually fighting. Howard however is explicit: Cimmerian women fought.
 
Demetrio said:
How many 'Queen Elizabeth' type figures have there been, and how far apart are they spaced?

You're looking at the wrong period for a start. Better to consider the Celtic tribes on whom the Cimmerians are loosley based rather than post Medieval Britain. Cartimandua and Boudicca led different tribes. Cartimandua ruled from about AD42-69. Boudicca ruled from the late 50s to AD 61. They were exact contemporaries. And they are easily two of the three most famous British leaders of that period.

Is there a relevance to looking at one era or another? I don't see it as being material? Or perhaps I simply fail to see your point.

Personally I'd see both as more of a minor martyr/figurehead-like figure more relevant due to their relations with the Romans than anything else, but I suppose that is a personal choice/view. They do not resonate with me the way the appear to do so with you.

---

Indeed we are left to conjecture at great length as to the meaning both of cimmerian women bearing arms and as to the connotations of being born on the battlefield.

In my own reading I note that usually in these celtic/tribal type of battles in addition to having sizable groups of fightingmen assembled as the 'force' as it were, you have equally if not larger groups of 'camp followers'... often a sizable portion of if not the tribe itself in attendance. A common tactic depicted in my reading has been the arraying of these people behind the main line/body of the men and their role being the tending of the friendly wounded and execution of the enemy wounded/stragglers.

I don't say that this 'is' what REH was referring to, but it is possible. It isn't however very cinematic if you happen to be a fan of femme fatales. ( I'm not, so I'm safe. :wink: )

Now... that said, the view that they actually bore arms in battle alongside men is also valid in that line. It is however a still farther step from that to deciding what their actual role may be. Anything from auxiliaries fighting beside their men kin to 'troops' of the line... to accepted as a leader of men I suppose. But that last is one, and the least likely IMO, among many possible views as to what that could have possibly meant.
 
Is there a relevance to looking at one era or another? I don't see it as being material? Or perhaps I simply fail to see your point.

Tudor England has absolutely no relevance to Cimmeria, unlike Iron Age Celtic Britain upon whose peoples Cimmeria was loosely based. Though interestingly in the Tudor period one had the two Mary's as well as Elizabeth.

Whether Boudicca resonates with you or not is irrelevant. The fact is that the Celts of Britain were open to female leadership, and in fact far more so than the 'more sophisticated' Romans... (just one example, Celtic British women could be legal heirs, unlike their Roman counterparts).

But we're agreed that the view that a woman might perhaps occasionally rise to chiefdom amongst the Cimmerians is an arguable one with at least some circumstantial evidence to support it. And just as valid as your view that it's ludicrously unlikely.

Are women found as leaders in Howard? Yes.
Did Cimmerian women fight? Yes.
Were Cimmerian women fighting leaders? Maybe. We can't say definitely yes or no. So inseting a token one in a source book doesn't seem unreasonable, especially as the 'historical source culture' for the Cimmerians did have at least the occasional female leader.
 
Demetrio said:
Tudor England has absolutely no relevance to Cimmeria, unlike Iron Age Celtic Britain upon whose peoples Cimmeria was loosely based.

For purposes of cultural comparison, I would agree. I wasn't however pointing to Tudor England as a direct cultural comparison I was using what I would think is one of the most common 'woman rulers' examples and noting it isn't exactly a common occurence. In that context I think it is relative to my point and saying 'wrong era, so I don't think it matters' I think was out of place.

Demetrio said:
Whether Boudicca resonates with you or not is irrelevant. The fact is that the Celts of Britain were open to female leadership, and in fact far more so than the 'more sophisticated' Romans... (just one example, Celtic British women could be legal heirs, unlike their Roman counterparts).

Agreed again, resonance doesn't matter. I don't believe I inferred that it did?

Demetrio said:
'more sophisticated' Romans...

Quite so. Clearly the barbarians backwards and uncivilised approach to these things contributed to their downfall and subjugation. All their cities are belong to us. Ahem.

All fun aside your tone is making me begin to think that we are instead experiencing a conflict of viewpoints on history/culture beyond the game... which I would rather not get too terribly involved in due to volatility.

Demetrio said:
But we're agreed that the view that a woman might perhaps occasionally rise to chiefdom amongst the Cimmerians is an arguable one with at least some circumstantial evidence to support it. And just as valid as your view that it's ludicrously unlikely.

Neither view violates anything that REH specifically said, so effectively, I agree that we agree there as well.

Demetrio said:
Are women found as leaders in Howard? Yes.
Did Cimmerian women fight? Yes.
Were Cimmerian women fighting leaders? Maybe. We can't say definitely yes or no. So inseting a token one in a source book doesn't seem unreasonable, especially as the 'historical source culture' for the Cimmerians did have at least the occasional female leader.

With the additional question as to 'role' in fighting adding another progressional hurdle before arriving at 'leader' I don't think I agree, obviously, that it is not unreasonable. Obviously, instead, I think the opposite. There perhaps we are simply destined to disagree.
 
Demetrio, don't forget about Anne Boleyn. Likewise, she was no warrior woman but she was responsible for the split from the Church of Rome and the formation of the Church of England.
 
tarkhan bey said:
Demetrio, don't forget about Anne Boleyn. Likewise, she was no warrior woman but she was responsible for the split from the Church of Rome and the formation of the Church of England.

Oddly enough I thought that was King Henry...
 
For purposes of cultural comparison, I would agree. I wasn't however pointing to Tudor England as a direct cultural comparison I was using what I would think is one of the most common 'woman rulers' examples and noting it isn't exactly a common occurence. In that context I think it is relative to my point and saying 'wrong era, so I don't think it matters' I think was out of place.

If you're saying women rulers are unusual in all cultures then I agree. Where I'd say the difference is though is that in some cultures (eg Roman), they are non-existant, in others (eg medieval Europe) they are very rare and in yet others (Celtic Britain) they are merely infrequent.

All fun aside your tone is making me begin to think that we are instead experiencing a conflict of viewpoints on history/culture beyond the game... which I would rather not get too terribly involved in due to volatility.

Fair enough though I wonder if you noticed my inverted commas...

I'm more than happy to agree to differ as I think both points of view can be argued. And that's why I have no problem with a Cimmerian warrior chief being a woman - it's a decently arguable supposition.

Demetrio, don't forget about Anne Boleyn. Likewise, she was no warrior woman but she was responsible for the split from the Church of Rome and the formation of the Church of England.

She wasn't exactly a ruler though, being considerably in the shadow of her husband when it came to power.

I can't resist adding, without malice I hope, that the Tudors provided England with six monarchs, of whom three were women -albeit one of them only queen very briefly indeed (and in fact uncrowned).
 
Vortigern, while King Henry may have actually made the split, I think that it is reasonable to say that Anne Boleyn was the cause and the instigator.
Many modern historians are rubbishing her "protestant" credentials with a theory that she was a "Humanist" rather than a "Lutheran" but most books I have read on the subject indicate that she certainly sympathised with the reformers and was quite prepared to espouse their cause in her ambition to become Queen.

Demetrio, Anne was, in fact, crowned Queen although IIRC this was later overturned for political expediency. Although Henry VIII was clearly the man in charge, I believe that until she was unable to provide a male heir she had considerable influence as shown by the break with the Papacy and thus IMHO deserves to be counted among the female rulers of Tudor Britain.

Technically speaking guys, you could also add in Lady Jane Grey. Though I believe that might be pushing it. :lol:

I have just realised Demetrio, that this is who you are referring to. :oops:
 
A nice fancy flying in the face of physical realities and psychological tendencies.

If you 'let' strength decide, you don't end up with conveniently iconic femme fatales in charge, you end up with history. i.e. the occasional aberration or martyr/figurehead like figure... not a culture embracing the idea, at least not until society reaches a level of sophistication and distance from survival scale realities to where 'strength' stops being so relevant.

Came the English early,
Or came the English late.
They always found Black Agnes
A-Standing at the gate.

History does not say what you think it says. What it says is that cultures which have not reached a level of distance from survival scale realities cannot afford to let half their population stand idle.

We know very little about the ancient Celts. What we do know, however, indicates that female fighters were not unheard of. Cuchulain's tale includes two, Scathach and her rival Aifa, and no comment is made on them being unusual. Ceaser mentions them too.

In other ancient cultures there are similar figures. For example, The ancient Gothic heroine, Hervor, appear in tales originating not long after the events they chronicle.

In the middle ages, women often engaged in warfare. A lord's wife's duties included defending her home if it was attacked while her husband was away, or dead, and women could inherit fiefdoms if they had no brothers. Being female did not exclude them from military service. Black Agnes, Countess of Dunbar, is one of many noblewomen who are known to have defended their castles against attack, and some led troops in the field, occasionally as supreme commanders. The period of King Stephen's captivity during the civil war that dominated his reign saw both sides being commanded by women (unhelpfully, both named Matilda). In King John's reign, Nichola de la Haye was Sheriff of Lincoln, and defended that town against the kings enemies.

Women who actually engaged in combat themselves were rarer, but by no means unheard of. They include Jean de Montfort and Isabel of Conches, and eyewitnesses of the First Crusade, both Byzantine and Arab, report (with dismay) western women fighting:

Among the Franks there were indeed women who rode into battle with cuirasses and helmets, dressed in men's clothes; who rode out into the thick of the fray and acted like brave men although they were but tender women, maintaining that all this was an act of piety, thinking to gain heavenly rewards by it, and making it their way of life. Praise be to him who led them into such error and out of the paths of wisdom! On the day of battle more than one woman rode out with them like a knight and showed (masculine) endurance in spite of the weakness (of her sex); clothed only in a coat of mail they were not recognized as women until they had been stripped of their arms

Imad al Din.

Females were numbered among them, riding horseback in the manner of
men, not on coverlets sidesaddle but unashamedly astride, and bearing
lances and weapons as men do; dressed in masculine garb, they conveyed a
wholly martial appearance, more mannish than the Amazons. One stood out
from the rest as another Penthesilea and from the embroidered gold which
ran around the hem and fringes of her garment was called Goldfoot.16

Nicetas Choniates.

Howard was almost certainly aware of this sort of thing, although we cannot tell what he had actually read of course. But he uses the idea in one of his historical tales... The Sowers of Thunder.


Now... that said, the view that they actually bore arms in battle alongside men is also valid in that line. It is however a still farther step from that to deciding what their actual role may be. Anything from auxiliaries fighting beside their men kin to 'troops' of the line... to accepted as a leader of men I suppose. But that last is one, and the least likely IMO, among many possible views as to what that could have possibly meant.

I think you have the liklihoods backwards. To find a woman in a command position is more likely than to find her as a fighter.
 
Spongly said:
Edit. The Howard reference is this passage from Black Colossus:

Amalric twisted his yellow mustache to hide a grin. Evidently Conan supposed Yasmela intended to strap on a sword and take part in the actual fighting, as the barbarian women often fought.

"The women of the Hyborians do not fight like your Cimmerian women, Conan,"

From the second draft of Black Colossus:

Amalric, delving into the scenes of a turbulent life, recalled a desperate battle on the northern frontier, and wild figures rushing into the melee – tall, supple women, stark naked, their black hair streaming, their eyes blazing, swords dripping redly in their hands. He shook his head
 
Vortigern said:
Indeed we are left to conjecture at great length as to the meaning both of cimmerian women bearing arms and as to the connotations of being born on the battlefield.

In my own reading I note that usually in these celtic/tribal type of battles in addition to having sizable groups of fightingmen assembled as the 'force' as it were, you have equally if not larger groups of 'camp followers'... often a sizable portion of if not the tribe itself in attendance. A common tactic depicted in my reading has been the arraying of these people behind the main line/body of the men and their role being the tending of the friendly wounded and execution of the enemy wounded/stragglers.

I don't say that this 'is' what REH was referring to, but it is possible. It isn't however very cinematic if you happen to be a fan of femme fatales. ( I'm not, so I'm safe. :wink: )

I don't know, none of the things you've mentioned sounds much like "strapping on a sword and taking part in the actual fighting" which are Howard's specific words. In fact, that sounds like a totally different thing from "hanging around on the battlefield tending the wounded".
 
Vortigern said:
I haven't had a chance to peruse the book itself however ... I did take a look at the preview download available on the mongoose website.

It made me question the book, primarily because of the section discussing the woman chieftain of a cimmerian clan. While it 'does' say she is the first in sixty years or more, in a few ways it still rankles me.

Am I the only one who sees this type of, ah?, egalitarianism as out of place in Conan?

The answer appears to be 'yes'. :wink:

For those who have recently chimed in, I feel like this has pretty much reached a point of repitition and feel there is little point to continuing a game debate that has devolved to being more about peoples OOC desires/perceptions concerning history than the game any longer.
 
Can I chime in, as I wrote it?

There was no attempt at egalitarianism. It merely seemed possible, to me, that because Cimmerian women are described by REH as fighters alongside men, that a clan might have a female leader and that it would be interesting to write one in as a contrast to the obvious scent of testosterone emanating from all the other clans. That's not egalitarianism; its attempting to introduce some variety, whilst remaining within the spirit of the saga, into a society that, really, has very little cultural variety anyway (based on what little REH wrote about Cimmeria, at any rate).

Speaking personally, just because REH never specifically mentions a Cimmerian chieftainess, you can't assume that they don't have them or they couldn't exist. Had REH specifically had Conan stating that no woman had ever led or clan, or had the wit to do so, then clearly I wouldn't have written one in.

Fact is though, in your Conan campaign, you can ignore what I've written completely and change her to a male. Ultimately the choice is yours - just like any other aspect of the game. There's also the potential for roleplaying opportunities of how the male-dominated clans actually view a clan where a woman's in charge. You could have great fun with that kind of set-up.
 
Still no Black Kingdoms (nor Turan), but "largely made-up" or "heavy pastiche-based" books ?

There's damnably little hard fact on either Turan or the Black Kingdoms to be found in Howard. Source books are inevitably going to either have to refer to the pastiches or draw on the author's imagination (or both). Otherwise they'd be about 2 pages long at most...

So long as the source books don't actually contradict Howard (and I don't think any do) and so long as they keep a Howard-like tone then I con't see a problem. In fact some people (not me) might like stuff from the pastiches to be drawn on as they are (like it or not) part of the publinshed extended canon.

On the arrows thing, Howard nowhere states that the Cimmerians shunned the bow entirely, he merely implies that it is not a weapon of choice for that people. that doesn't mean they'd necessarily lack bows entirely, just that they'd be uncommon - and more so in battle. that seems to me to be what the book suggests.
 
Demetrio, I think that what Loz wrote on missile weapons is OK. I've said it after he posted his quote of the book.
I still think that if bows were in use in Cimmeria, a pragmatist like Conan would have learned to fire one before travelling to Hyrkania. He said once that his missile weapons during his youth were spears.

And yes, a RPG source book author needs to fill-in the blanks and extrapolate.
As long as what he writes: 1) Doesn't contradict the 'canon'.
2) Includes every (or at least, most) reference(s) available in the 'canon'.
It works for me. I simply expressed my feeling: what I would like is to see is sourcebooks on the countries for which we have the most data. It has nothing to do with Loz, but with Mongoose's choices.


Demetrio, you said that there's "damnably little hard fact" about the Black Kingdoms or Turan in the Conan yarns written by REH. I beg to differ.

How many stories are located in or around Turan, the Black Kingdoms, or mention those places or their inhabitants?

Let's talk about the Black Kingdoms.
Stories who take place there: Queen of the Black Coast, The Vale of Lost Women, Jewels of Gwalhur, Xuthal of the Dusk, Red Nails.
Plus the "Tombalku" fragment. Plus a second unfinished story, "A Snout In The Dark".
The Man-Eaters of Zamboula gives us data on Darfar. There are some informations in The Hour of the Dragon about Black pirates and in The Scarlet Citadel on the sack of Abombi. In Beyond the Black River, we learn of Jhebbal Sag worship in the Black Kingdoms. Oh yes, and part of Kutamun's soldiers (Black Colossus) are Ku$hites.

You can find informations on the Black Kingdoms or their denizens in ten completed yarns (five located there, five including data) and two fragments. REH finished 21 Conan stories.
A sizable portion, IMO.

"damnably little hard fact"? There's more 'canon' material about the Black Kingdoms than what can be found on most (not ALL, but MOST) of the countries of the Hyborian Age.

I don't have time right now to write something on Turan, but believe me, when I look at my notes, there is much more about Turan than on lots of other places...
 
There is still very little hard fact to be gleaned from the Howard stories set in the Black Kingdoms. More than about most other areas, certainly but it still doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
 
Back
Top