Cimmeria contents
- Thread starter Hervé
- Start date
Yogah of Yag
Mongoose
Loz said:Yogah of Yag said:[delurk]
I'm guessing a great amount of this book is pastiche-based or completely made up by the author. :? I don't recollect "geasa" mentioned in canon Conan. I think somebody was trying too hard to meld Slaine into Conan.
Awaiting a thorough review...
[lurk mode activated]
Its far, far more 'made up by the author' than it is pastiche-based....
I'm assuming that you are the author of the work in question. Congratulations on getting published.
I think it may be a mistake to project what we now know in the early 21st century as "Celtic" back onto a series of works that were written in the early 20th century by an author in the Deep South with nothing more than a high school education and (probably) no access to an university collection with which to conduct more research. We now have greater access to a whole spectrum of Celtic lit. in translation, many more archaeological finds, expanded collections of Greco-Roman lit. on the (Insular and Continental) Celts, and so on. We should be asking ourselves 'What would/did REH himself know about the Celts at the time?'
It is likely that, if REH thought of his family as descended from "Highland Scots", that alone he used this connection as the model on which to base his fictional Cimmerians, and likely without any knowledge of any other of the many aspects of the Celtic Cultural Complex, whether Irish, Welsh, Continental or other.
As a current student and author of Celtic Studies I'm keenly interested in exploring the "Celtic" elements (scant as they are) in REH's Conan stories, and after years of careful consideration, I honestly see very few. Questions I ask are, for example:
'What Celtic subject-oriented books did REH have access to during his floruit and in his geographical location?' 'Celtomania' started in the early to mid 19th century and was responsible for a torrent of material on the subject of wildly varying quality (e.g. Macpherson's Ossian stories, and a plethora of pseudo-academic books on Druidry). But at the same time respected researchers (as Kuno Meyer) began studying and translating the MSS. of Old Irish and Welsh (Ulster Cycle, Mythological Cycle, Fenian Cycle; the Tain Bo Cuailgne being foremost
) It's highly unlikely that REH had access to Meyer's translations/scholarly articles or any currently-available translation of the Tain.'Did REH read the very famous Gallic War by J. Caesar or any other Greco-Roman references to the ancient Celts, as Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, Herodotus, or Pliny?' The Gallic War has been very widely read by schoolboys for centuries and I think this is the best candidate, but, frankly, I don't see any influence of Caesar's work on REH's Conan stories.
'Did REH read any Old Irish lit.?' Again, many traits which I would tentatively called quintessentially 'Celtic' I do not see (sunwise rotation, head-hunting, chariots, geis, Druids, torcs, ford duels, etc.), other than a cheap throwing around of a few names of mostly Irish deities (Crom, Badb, Morrigan, Macha, Nemain, Diancecht, Dagda [Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, p. 418]).
I've gotta get back to work. :lol:
Game on!
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
Yogah of Yag said:
Some answers to what was on REH's bookshelves can be found here: http://www.rehupa.com/bookshelf.htm
I'm not very familiar with Howard's education, but he was a writer of historical fiction as well as fantasy, and they were very well researched. He is comfortable with technical terms for pieces of plate armour, for example. I wouldn't underestimate his knowledge.
I believe you are mistaken. If anything, his view of Celts was more irish than anything else. You may wish to read some of his works about heroes other than Conan such as Black Vulmea (Irish), Turlogh Dubh O'Brien (Irish) or Cormac Fitzgeoffrey (Irish). You might also want to try http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Cairn_on_the_Headland
tarkhan bey
Mongoose
I agree that REH seems to have had some love for the Celt as the Irish Gael and that many of his heroes are obviously of this type or ancestry. I, for one, espouse that the Cimmerians are closer to a mixture of Highland and Lowland Scots.
I read somewhere once(can't remember where though
) that the difference between an Irishman and a Scotsman is that the first has fire without and steel within, whereas the second has steel without and fire within.
I suppose I am saying that Cimmerians sound closer to the second description.
It occurs to me that the Cimmerians live in the Clan society of the Highland Scots but have the dour demeanour and sobriety normally associated to Lowland covenanting types(Per Prospero and Conan's conversation in "The Phoenix on the Sword").
Just my tuppence worth.
I read somewhere once(can't remember where though
) that the difference between an Irishman and a Scotsman is that the first has fire without and steel within, whereas the second has steel without and fire within.I suppose I am saying that Cimmerians sound closer to the second description.
It occurs to me that the Cimmerians live in the Clan society of the Highland Scots but have the dour demeanour and sobriety normally associated to Lowland covenanting types(Per Prospero and Conan's conversation in "The Phoenix on the Sword").
Just my tuppence worth.
Yogah of Yag
Mongoose
tarkhan bey said:I read somewhere once(can't remember where though
If you've got steel within...erm, you've been perforated, mate! :lol:
tarkhan bey
Mongoose
A very literal interpretation Yogah. :lol:
FailedSpotCheck
Mongoose
I'd much rather have steel without and booze within, but that's the way I roll! 
tarkhan bey
Mongoose
If the booze is whiskey, then you can have fire within at the same time. :lol:
An additional question may be asked: how much did REH want Cimmerians to stick to historical Celts?
He probably had access to Logan's The Scottish Gael, or at least the classical works that relate to the Celts. Here we have references to sleeping in the snow, and to the wearing of skins and pelts as a matter of pride.
He probably had access to Logan's The Scottish Gael, or at least the classical works that relate to the Celts. Here we have references to sleeping in the snow, and to the wearing of skins and pelts as a matter of pride.
I haven't had a chance to peruse the book itself however ... I did take a look at the preview download available on the mongoose website.
It made me question the book, primarily because of the section discussing the woman chieftain of a cimmerian clan. While it 'does' say she is the first in sixty years or more, in a few ways it still rankles me.
Am I the only one who sees this type of, ah?, egalitarianism as out of place in Conan?
It made me question the book, primarily because of the section discussing the woman chieftain of a cimmerian clan. While it 'does' say she is the first in sixty years or more, in a few ways it still rankles me.
Am I the only one who sees this type of, ah?, egalitarianism as out of place in Conan?
Demetrio said:
I find that a rather in-apt comparison for a variety of reasons.
Most prominent to me REH made reference to the religious-like fervor that the south-islanders had for Belit. We have no idea of knowing how or why this fervor was generated. ( It 'could' have simply been because she was the piratess extraordinaire... but I doubt it. ) That and her relative inaction when it comes to the fighting comes to mind.
A more apt comparison is Valeria, as a fighting woman type of character... but one who was rather clearly not having a good time of things because of men seeking to have their way with her, including Conan.
So she's a hybrid Belit/Valeria. She has Belit's position of command but not half her reputation and she is resticted to one tribe without Belit's 'mystic power' to recruit fresh followers. Unlike Belit (but like Valeria) she fights.
Regardless, it is one woman and one tribe. There's nothing 'egalitarian' about it. It's not like Howard didn't have any powerful female characters. And it's not like the game books are exactly oerflowing with powerful female npcs...
Regardless, it is one woman and one tribe. There's nothing 'egalitarian' about it. It's not like Howard didn't have any powerful female characters. And it's not like the game books are exactly oerflowing with powerful female npcs...
Generally speaking the areas of 'Hyboria' ( Don't hit me Vincent. I know there is no such thing, but the term is handy. ) that are more accepting of 'non-traditional' ( from a western perspective ) roles for women tend to be the primitive ones. Like Kush or even farther places ( like the south islands ). Tribal peoples like the Picts etc.
I suppose the Cimmerians can be compared to these, though I had never really considered them to be on that 'level' of development. I thought ( correct me if I am wrong? ) that they were at more of an inbetween level between the more developed fuedal societies of the Hyborians and the degenerated types like the picts.
Still a 'strong' people with 'barbarian' ways, but no longer of the 'savage' types. REH's ideal state, the noble barbarian, as it were.
Perhaps my understanding is flawed, in which case I welcome correction, but it makes me question the placement of women as tribal leaders among the cimmerians. Women as strong characters I am fine with, as long as it either fits the culture in question or is made clear to be an aberration ( with logically following consequences ). The issue is the setting and it's culture, which I don't think would/should be very accepting of a woman in said capacity, in said society.
I suppose the Cimmerians can be compared to these, though I had never really considered them to be on that 'level' of development. I thought ( correct me if I am wrong? ) that they were at more of an inbetween level between the more developed fuedal societies of the Hyborians and the degenerated types like the picts.
Still a 'strong' people with 'barbarian' ways, but no longer of the 'savage' types. REH's ideal state, the noble barbarian, as it were.
Perhaps my understanding is flawed, in which case I welcome correction, but it makes me question the placement of women as tribal leaders among the cimmerians. Women as strong characters I am fine with, as long as it either fits the culture in question or is made clear to be an aberration ( with logically following consequences ). The issue is the setting and it's culture, which I don't think would/should be very accepting of a woman in said capacity, in said society.
The British Celts, on whom the Cimmerians are loosely based had a fair number of notable female leaders. For example Queens Cartimunda and Boudicca. There's also the legendary Scots-Irish warrior Scathach.
Now there's no suggestion that either Boudicca or Cartimunda actually bore arms but the culture the Cimmerians are most based on was certainly open to the idea of female leaders. On occasion.
I'll have a quick glance through Howard to check on what his take on Cimmeran women is. I dimly recal him saying the bore arms.
Now there's no suggestion that either Boudicca or Cartimunda actually bore arms but the culture the Cimmerians are most based on was certainly open to the idea of female leaders. On occasion.
I'll have a quick glance through Howard to check on what his take on Cimmeran women is. I dimly recal him saying the bore arms.
Mongoose_Will
Mongoose
I'm no expert but the Cimmerians seem to be People that let strength decide...
now if the woman is the one kickin butts it would seem totally relevent that she deserves to be in charge, if the Cimmerians didnt like it they would probably kick her out but if shes the strongest are you really gonna go and tell her shes gotta go?
hehe artistically females look way cooler than males anyway... 60% of the time
now if the woman is the one kickin butts it would seem totally relevent that she deserves to be in charge, if the Cimmerians didnt like it they would probably kick her out but if shes the strongest are you really gonna go and tell her shes gotta go?
hehe artistically females look way cooler than males anyway... 60% of the time
Mongoose_Will said:I'm no expert but the Cimmerians seem to be People that let strength decide...
now if the woman is the one kickin butts it would seem totally relevent that she deserves to be in charge, if the Cimmerians didnt like it they would probably kick her out but if shes the strongest are you really gonna go and tell her shes gotta go?
hehe artistically females look way cooler than males anyway... 60% of the time
A nice fancy flying in the face of physical realities and psychological tendencies.
If you 'let' strength decide, you don't end up with conveniently iconic femme fatales in charge, you end up with history. i.e. the occasional aberration or martyr/figurehead like figure... not a culture embracing the idea, at least not until society reaches a level of sophistication and distance from survival scale realities to where 'strength' stops being so relevant.
Kill Bill \= Conan.