Charted Space Capital Warships are under gunned.

[swordtart]

I’m a big fan boy in general and one of the things also all StarWars Droids have is consciousness which according to Traveller is not available until TL 17. As for the battle droids it depends on the model and when durning the clone wars they were used, early battle droids were mass produced junk half drone later ones and other models where more intelligent (they were all conscious but the original ones were stupider than a lemming). Most Starwars droids don’t show much personality because it’s standard practice to wipe the experience memory at various intervals.

Maybe, but that is still a straw-man argument as you are the one who mentioned Star Wars and only so that you could say they were too advanced to operate in Traveller. Traveller robots are not constrained by the rules of Star Wars (unless you choose to set your game in that universe). Current AI is capable of simulating sentience to fool far to many people and we are supposed to be currently TL 8-9.

For Advanced Brains (TL 10-12) RH p65 has
"The robot has general intelligence and can communicate and interact with its environment in a manner that emulates a sentient being. Communication and actions are literal and formulaic with the potential for unexpected or unfamiliar circumstances to cause confusion, inaction or inappropriate action."
That sounds like C3P0 to me. I also meet people like this every day.

 

[tytalan]

For Advances Brains (TL 10-12) RH p65 has
"The robot has general intelligence and can communicate and interact with its environment in a manner that emulates a sentient being. Communication and actions are literal and formulaic with the potential for unexpected or unfamiliar circumstances to cause confusion, inaction or inappropriate action."
That sounds like C3P0 to me. I also meet people like this every day.

This sounds more like C3PO “ Conscious The robot is a fully conscious being in every aspect. It can exceed its parameters and limitations and has the ability to develop true emotions and ambitions that might not conform to the expectations of its biological creators. Conscious brains combine full sentient thought patterns with high-speed computational and analytical circuitry allowing them to exceed the intellectual capacity of non-augmented biological beings.” There’s a big difference between being a coward and a pessimist than having problems with the unexpected the first is a emotional response the second is programming issues

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Doesn’t the Annic Nova officially have a brain in a jar? I’m not sure what mongoose Traveller 2 book it’s in can you also give a reference?

I only have very old versions plus the 2016 CRB version which has a 10/bis computer. Neither seem to refer to a biological brain or an AI.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Which is a far cry from your let’s replace everyone with a Robot. Also the discussion was about TI military ships and the fact that the low ranking crew should not be in staterooms but instead in barracks.

To be fair, I can make a robot with a lot of positive DMs that counteract the negative and would work as well as a sophont. I trimmed back one of my regular models to make it less expensive. This one can do the work.



And a more expensive model.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Like I say, Annic Nova is a plot device, not a ship. It's not reproducible in any High Guard rules ever, and to be honest really isn't a good faith example (nor the gotcha you think it is).

So long as it keeps being republished under new editions it is Canon.

Anomalies in the design:
Hull cost seems based on a 600 ton ship.

Jump power seems based on a 600 tons ship + 80 tons for the two pinnaces in docking clamps.

Jump drive mass is also based on a 600 ton ship carrying the pinnaces in docking clamps. As is the price.

Basic power also based on a 600 ton hull not the 520.

Collectors break the pattern and are sized for a 520 ton ship carrying the 80 tons of the 2 pinnaces.

Bridge is odd in that it has a normal bridge and a small bridge each individually following the rules

So it looks like you can design the Annic Nova as present in the 2016 High Guard under those rules. They just messed up the ship size between 520 tons some times and 600 tons other times.

 

[tytalan]

So long as it keeps being republished under new editions it is Canon.

Anomalies in the design:
Hull cost seems based on a 600 ton ship.

Jump power seems based on a 600 tons ship + 80 tons for the two pinnaces in docking clamps.

Jump drive mass is also based on a 600 ton ship carrying the pinnaces in docking clamps. As is the price.

Basic power also based on a 600 ton hull not the 520.

Collectors break the pattern and are sized for a 520 ton ship carrying the 80 tons of the 2 pinnaces.

Bridge is odd in that it has a normal bridge and a small bridge each individually following the rules

So it looks like you can design the Annic Nova as present in the 2016 High Guard under those rules. They just messed up the ship size between 520 tons some times and 600 tons other times.

So I’ll ask again what book is this ship in. You say it’s been published for MgT2 so what book?

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

So I’ll ask again what book is this ship in. You say it’s been published for MgT2 so what book?

As I said High Guard 2016

 

[rinku]

Annic Nova having a smart computer or brain in a jar doesn't sound right to me, in any of the versions I've seen. It has an alien ship's computer that the players must learn to operate, but that's essentially translation and trial and error stuff.

Possibly whoever thought that might be conflating it with Kinunir? That has a conventional ship's computer (no brain in jar), but of an advanced experimental AI type. Or maybe it having a brain in a jar was something a Referee they played it under put in as a thing? Quite possible and not out of scope for a mysterious ship.

Personally, although the HG 2016 entry for it was interesting, I didn't much see the need for it separate to the adventure it's presented in. It's explicitly a one-off weird ship using at least partially alien technology, so does not need to be shoehorned into any ship design sequence. You can use the actual CT description in MGT. The adventure itself is easily available and a great example of being able to directly use CT stuff with the current ruleset.

Other legacy ships like the Leviathan or the asteroid ship from Expedition to Zhodane are fair enough - those are Imperial tech and especially in the case of Leviathan there are other examples of the class in service that have nothing to do with the adventure. Running the design through the current ship design rules is fair enough.

 

[tytalan]

As I said High Guard 2016

Which has officially been replaced with HG 2022 and that ship is not in it. Since it not in any of their adventures I’d say it’s no longer canon. Also using a ship that was a plot device in an adventure as well as being called an artifact really doesn’t support your argument.

 

[rinku]

Omission from HG 2022 doesn't invalidate it, though. Just as the asteroid mining chapter in HG 2016 is still valid and usable.

I'm pretty sure Mongoose has not decided that the Annic Nova does not exist. Just that maybe it doesn't really belong in the High Guard page count.

If a NEW listing for the ship is published, THEN the old one is obsolete.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Which has officially been replaced with HG 2022 and that ship is not in it. Since it not in any of their adventures I’d say it’s no longer canon. Also using a ship that was a plot device in an adventure as well as being called an artifact really doesn’t support your argument.

A stone knife is an artifact but is still a knife. It can be replicated in High Guard 2022 and hence is a valid ship design.

Annic Nova is apparently included in the Mongoose Traveller Compendium 2. Mongoose Traveller 1st edition but still Mongoose canon.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Since it is from a Marc Miller adventure that would seem to make it canon until EXPLICITLY made non canon.

 

[rinku]

A compendium or a JTAS is far and away a better place to publish it. Leave the High Guard page count for ships that better fit in with the HG design sequence. And yes, I am well aware they put Collectors in as exotic tech. They also put in Shields, and I don't see any ships that use those.

And again... where is the problem with using the CT description as written? The ship is effectively immobile in space combat (0.1 G when being maneuvered by the small craft, I think), doesn't use fuel aside from said small craft, and has a defined period to charge up the jump drives. The weapons are lasers (pick pulse or beam). The cargo size is defined. The accommodations are defined. A nominal ship's value is provided from which maintenance costs could be derived, though to be honest it's so non-standard that a Referee decision is going to be needed regarding that. Many of the ship systems are clearly advanced and self-maintaining; others are not. The Pinnaces probably need a separate maintenance schedule .

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Leave the High Guard pages for more commonly used vessels. The odd balls (like alien ships) can be elsewhere.

 

[Endie]

As I said High Guard 2016

Rightly removed from the revised, current version.

And you’re absolutely wrong that Annic Nova supports your position. It clearly does not. It can misjump as often as it likes (and by the rules it will have done so a lot over the years) but its collectors just power up and on it jumps.

I’ve not really seen anyone try to depend on the Annic Nova as evidence for anything since the 90s - it’s a weird position to take - but if you buy it then you also have to say that maintenance is unnecessary and ships can jump for years without it, while collectors work at low speed and when absolutely tiny. There are a lot more: nobody not doggedly trying to win a weird argument claims Annic Nova is anything beyond a “hey this would be cool” plot device.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Doesn’t really matter what the rules were before we are talking Mongoose Traveller 2 rule set and that trumps anything from early editions that is the game we are talking about

In which case robots are capable as per the Robots rules so you just defeated your own objection up thread.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Which has officially been replaced with HG 2022 and that ship is not in it. Since it not in any of their adventures I’d say it’s no longer canon. Also using a ship that was a plot device in an adventure as well as being called an artifact really doesn’t support your argument.

You asked which MgT2e book, HG'16 is a MgT 2e book, so now you change your goalposts... the 2022 revisions do not replace the earlier books, Matt said so, they are updates not new editions.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Rightly removed

In only your opinion.

from the revised, current version.

Which doesn't replace the 2016 book, Matt said so. It is a revision not a replacement.

And you’re absolutely wrong that Annic Nova supports your position. It clearly does not. It can misjump as often as it likes (and by the rules it will have done so a lot over the years) but its collectors just power up and on it jumps.

How do we know it is misjumping? What do the various incarnations of the adventure say...

I’ve not really seen anyone try to depend on the Annic Nova as evidence for anything since the 90s - it’s a weird position to take - but if you buy it then you also have to say that maintenance is unnecessary and ships can jump for years without it, while collectors work at low speed and when absolutely tiny. There are a lot more: nobody not doggedly trying to win a weird argument claims Annic Nova is anything beyond a “hey this would be cool” plot device.

You must have joined recently, it crops up all the time...

 

[swordtart]

This sounds more like C3PO “ Conscious The robot is a fully conscious being in every aspect. It can exceed its parameters and limitations and has the ability to develop true emotions and ambitions that might not conform to the expectations of its biological creators. Conscious brains combine full sentient thought patterns with high-speed computational and analytical circuitry allowing them to exceed the intellectual capacity of non-augmented biological beings.” There’s a big difference between being a coward and a pessimist than having problems with the unexpected the first is a emotional response the second is programming issues

I am not going to bother arguing about the fictional capabilities of a robot outside the parameters of the game system we are discussing. RH says TL10 brains can emulate a sentient being. How you define sentience and how close they approach it is philosophy and unlikely to lead to any useful conclusion.

That is a matter of opinion and I prefer to deal in fact.

 

[Endie]

Edit: argh Endie you are better than allowing yourself to be dragged into this!