Changes. New things. Revisions. Reimaginings.

[Stormwalker]

<2cents>

On the subject of Trolls and why humans might be uncomfortable around them...

There are mythical reasons why this might be so ... just think about their runic associations and history - They are creatures of darkness and cold and they are associated with the Underworld, which has strong connections with death and the afterlife... is this not reason enough to fear and resent them? The problem doesn't have to be physical ...

</2cents>

back to lurking ...

 

[JonGeere]

All I did was mention that troll-sweat has a certain unappealing musk

DBC you've got a short straw on Trolls though, the old trollpack was pretty cool and detailed, and the Uz are probably the most established fantasy race in Glorrantha or anywhere else come to think of it. You've got a pretty difficult task to rework it.
Reckon you'll get a fair number of Hecklers no matter what you write... kind of a no win situation... best of luck.
Heres hoping you do a wicked job, looking forward to reading it.

Paul

I agree it is a tall ask, but as Drastic: Darkness proved it can be done. Most I feel will be very glad to see Trolls 2nd age stuff in print, especially if it is good quality (which I feel it will be).

Yes there will be stuff to heckle over--but this should be taken as a _good thing_. Passioned debate is a million times better than it being so dull that no-one can bring themselves to discuss it.

[All said with the proviso that new stuff adds to the world and The Folk in a constructive way].

 

[Rurik]

Yes it does, I mean why would you want filthy darkness based magics when your pure and good magics are so much better? I mean why else would the toughest trolls prefer them over their own?

I mean ZZ was so afaird of Yelmalio he could only muster the courage to face him when Yelmalio was sorely wounded. Not only that, he had to ambush him as well!


"Har! look at me, I am mighty Zorak Zoran! War god of the Trolls, general of the armies of unde Ooops! here comes Yelmalio I better run and hide , AW no, I've soiled myself...again. Good thing no-one ever notices the smell."

Coughcowardcough.

Absolutely.

Zorak Zoran is a wussy*

Yelmalio would kick his bum-bum* in a fair fight - that is if ZZ had the testicles* to face him head on.

Rurik Runespear

*Trying real hard not to get this thread deleted.

This is something I'm very keen on addressing, especially since ZeeZee is coming up in what I'm writing right now. Essentially, as presented in previous times, he can seem a bit of a...well, a wimp. And for a God of War, that's not particularly the angle I'm hoping to convey. (At least not from the troll POV - the God Learners can think whatever they like; they'll never agree with each other on it anyway.)

Putting aside my Religeous convictions and trying to be objective, and without going back and digging up old ZZ myths, I would have to say that the above version of events is probably taken from the Yelmalio version of the Myth. I think Zorak Zorans' version of the story may be a bit different.

I also think he would hate being referred to as ZeeZee. I like it.

 

[CharlieMonster]

Trolls are no fools, and they hate and fear creatures of light and fire. Zorak Zoran is a culture hero (and a nutter!) for taking on a god of Fire.

That's pretty much how other Trolls view Zorak Zorani. It is worth remembering that in Troll cultures ZZs are outsiders in the same way that Uroxi are in Orlanthi culture. They muck around with a lot of bad stuff like fire an' undead and s**t, but you need 'em around, you sure as hell don't want to upset them, so let them get on with it.

Give them a nice big cave all on their own, at the other end of town and stay out of their way until you have unwanted guests. Then you just point them in the right direction and dive for cover! :lol:

 

[Adept]

Shucks. I'd like to try and pour some oil on the water here.

I'm not a native english speaker. I'm pretty close (having studied under english teachers as a kid), but I may mistake the tone of a poster sometimes, especially when I'm not getting enough sleep, like this week. E-mail and forums are notorious for making people sound more intense and extreme than they really are anyway.

So, I'd like to calm things down a bit. It sounded to me, that DBC was taking a pretty extreme and defensive stance with his long opening post. I propably got it at least partially wrong, and my arguments weren't written as well as they should have been.

I'm really happy that more Glorantha material is being written and published. The second age is a fascinating period, and Mongoose has a good thing going here. More power to the writers.

All I'm saying is that if you step too far from the established canon (or "generally accepted glorantha, as the Gloranthan Digest term goes) you risk disaster. As has been said by others here, concentrate on writing new material, not changing the old stuff. Stick with that, and it's hard to see how you can go wrong.

Looking forward to the Cults books and Magic of Glorantha,

-Adept: Finland, EU

 

[burdock]

adept wrote

It sounded to me, that DBC was taking a pretty extreme and defensive stance with his long opening post

He was indeed.... but I think he was feeling the pressure of our expectations and he can be quite fiery. Usually there are glimmering jewels beneath the flames.

 

[Trifletraxor]

Also glad to hear that the noses are more of an artistic impression than an official change.

I honestly don't know either way. I'm a l'il cog in a big machine. I get to make reams of art notes on my projects, though. Mongoose are generous as hell about that kinda stuff.

So, y'know, I'll bring up the 'snout' thing. Fear not, amigos.

You just got a star in my book!

SGL

 

[soltakss]

All I did was mention that troll-sweat has a certain unappealing musk

Ah, that's probably why they have pig noses - so they can smell other things over their own smell. It suddenly all makes sense!

 

[Trifletraxor]

It depends. I've personally never been a fan of Sandy's. The man only thinks about game mechanics. His take on the Cthulhu mythos made every creature rediculously tough and powerful, because he thinks that's the only way to make them horrifying to players. The same shows on his Glorantha stuff. A very gamist writer, our Sandy.

YOU FOOL! SANDY IS A GOD!

All I did was mention that troll-sweat has a certain unappealing musk

Smells like a 200 kg predator!

SGL.

 

[Arkat]

I'm a huge RQ fan. When RQ2/3 was in it's day I grabbed everything I could lay my hands on for it, still have most of it. For me RQ IS Glorantha, always will be. Greg and Sandy breathed vibrant life into Glorantha that was DIFFERENT from the now all-consuming D&D.

Now I've played the other variations of the game engine, like Elfquest, Pendragon, and Call of Cthulu and those are all good too. Glorantha however holds a special place for me.

So when I saw that Mongoose was releasing RQ again I was very excited that my favorite game system and campaign world would see new life. I love that they are being very prolific with it from the get go. That shows a commitment to the game and is very heartening.

However once you get reading through the books it's like someone socked you in the gut. There's just a ton of things that were changed, and not changed for the better just changed seemingly for the sake of change itself. Now some change is good. For the most part I love the character creation rules and the combat rules for Actions/Reactions. A definite improvement.

After having run a campaign with the new rules and having to fix so many things that just don't work well it sure seems like the writers and editors don't share the same love for the game or Glorantha. I find it hard to not question whether they even played the original game. It certainly doesn't come across as being play-tested nor well-edited.

I can only hold out hope that somewhere down the line there will be another new edition that polishes up this rush job and fixes most of the glaring irregularites.

 

[Voriof]

This is something I'm very keen on addressing, especially since ZeeZee is coming up in what I'm writing right now. Essentially, as presented in previous times, he can seem a bit of a...well, a wimp. And for a God of War, that's not particularly the angle I'm hoping to convey. (At least not from the troll POV - the God Learners can think whatever they like; they'll never agree with each other on it anyway.)

The heck? :shock: What source material have you been reading?!? ZZClub is quite the nasty customer. Very unpleasant and quite the tough customer and his worshippers are equally, dare I say, badass.

He is certainly portrayed as an unpleasant, powerful necessity for survival in many of the various Troll supplements though I admit the Book of Drastic Resolutions: Darkness has the best writeup, I think. Its a bit obscure to get though.

But YMMV...

Voriof

 

[soltakss]

After having run a campaign with the new rules and having to fix so many things that just don't work well it sure seems like the writers and editors don't share the same love for the game or Glorantha. I find it hard to not question whether they even played the original game. It certainly doesn't come across as being play-tested nor well-edited.

Oops, there goes the thread! :x

To be fair, it's sometimes good to come to something fresh without being bogged down by loads of old material.

Do professional writers have a love for the game/world they are writing about? I'm not one, so I wouldn't know. I would guess that hobbiests such as myself are passionate about their game/setting because it is juct a hobby. Professional writers might be doing RQ one week, Conan the next, Glorantha the next and Lhankmar the next, then they change companies and work on White Wolf or some other game.

So, guessing again, they might well not have any particular love for Glorantha or RQ. That doesn't mean they are not doing a good job, because they are.

Compare what has come out in, what, 3 months to what came out at Chaosium, Avalon Hill or even Issaries. Even in Chaosium's heyday, they were not producing more than one or two quality RQ supplements a year. Mongoose seem to be producing a quality RQ Gloranthan supplement a month, or every couple of months.

Now, I have issues about several things in the rules and the fact-checking that doesn't seem to have been done as effectively as it might, but those are minor points.

I see the new RQ range as being very good, with a few minor errors.

And, don't forget, that I am one of the old Gloranthan fogeys wallowing in my elitism, so I should know what I'm talking about It doesn't matter anyway, as this thread is now counting down to destruction.

 

[soltakss]

This is something I'm very keen on addressing, especially since ZeeZee is coming up in what I'm writing right now. Essentially, as presented in previous times, he can seem a bit of a...well, a wimp. And for a God of War, that's not particularly the angle I'm hoping to convey. (At least not from the troll POV - the God Learners can think whatever they like; they'll never agree with each other on it anyway.)

The heck? :shock: What source material have you been reading?!? ZZClub is quite the nasty customer. Very unpleasant and quite the tough customer and his worshippers are equally, dare I say, badass.

Hmm. I've always considered ZZ, the deity, as a big bully. He swaggers around, beating people up and doing bad things (killing Flamal, eating all the vegetation, messing Yelmalio up) but when things go badly, he generally runs away crying. So, yes, as a god he is a bit of a wimp, and deservedly so.

Zorak Zorani, on the other hand, are big, bad and hang around in berserking gangs. Their idea of tactics is a full-on charge, which I fully approve of by the way. They are sometimes sneaky and underhand, but I wouldn't give them a lot of sneaky tactics.

Trolls generally have many different tactics and forces, from Zongi skirmishers, Argan Argari spearmen, Kargi heavy infantry and cavalry, Gorakiki airborne units and Zorak Zorani berserkers.

Sure, Zorak Zorani have (or had) access to Crush, Berserker and Seal Wound, all of which are useful spells, but spells don't make a cult and spells don't make good warriors. They are individually tough, but a disorganised rabble in groups.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Hmm. I've always considered ZZ, the deity, as a big bully. He swaggers around, beating people up and doing bad things (killing Flamal, eating all the vegetation, messing Yelmalio up) but when things go badly, he generally runs away crying. So, yes, as a god he is a bit of a wimp, and deservedly so.

Zorak Zorani, on the other hand, are big, bad and hang around in berserking gangs. Their idea of tactics is a full-on charge, which I fully approve of by the way. They are sometimes sneaky and underhand, but I wouldn't give them a lot of sneaky tactics.

This is pretty much the way I see it, too.

 

[Exubae]

ZZ also kind of seemed to allow a rebellious outlet against the matriarchal society of the Uz. Where the male Uz could play at being bad boyz without being dragged into line by their mothers.
So I suppose all the untrustyworthy low lives of uz societywho can't stand being repressed by the women gravitate to Zorak Zorans eager clutches.

Starting to make it sound like a male-Uz-lib

 

[burdock]

arkat wrote

I can only hold out hope that somewhere down the line there will be another new edition that polishes up this rush job and fixes most of the glaring irregularites.

You're talking about the system yea? What do you think of the Gloranthan supplements we have had so far?

 

[Arkat]

You're talking about the system yea? What do you think of the Gloranthan supplements we have had so far?

I only picked up the main rules, companion, monsters and the adventure. Sadly the holes in the rules (as I percieve them) turned my group off the game and we had several old vets of RQ 2-3 along with some newcomers to RQ trying to make it work.

I love Glorantha but 3rd age holds more of an appeal to me than 2nd. Regardless of how good the 2nd age stuff is, and by all reports it is pretty decent, it can't compensate for rules that don't work as well as they should.

 

[homerjsinnott]

Hmm. I've always considered ZZ, the deity, as a big bully. He swaggers around, beating people up and doing bad things (killing Flamal, eating all the vegetation, messing Yelmalio up) but when things go badly, he generally runs away crying. So, yes, as a god he is a bit of a wimp, and deservedly so.

Zorak Zorani, on the other hand, are big, bad and hang around in berserking gangs. Their idea of tactics is a full-on charge, which I fully approve of by the way. They are sometimes sneaky and underhand, but I wouldn't give them a lot of sneaky tactics.

Trolls generally have many different tactics and forces, from Zongi skirmishers, Argan Argari spearmen, Kargi heavy infantry and cavalry, Gorakiki airborne units and Zorak Zorani berserkers.

Sure, Zorak Zorani have (or had) access to Crush, Berserker and Seal Wound, all of which are useful spells, but spells don't make a cult and spells don't make good warriors. They are individually tough, but a disorganised rabble in groups.

I very much agree with your bully point, But I always felt that bezerking by it's very nature was mentally avoiding what might happen to you and the horrors of war. Putting your head in the sand so to speak.

And Zorak Zorani have always hung around in gangs to get lots of mutual support, cause they can't face being on their own.

And lets face it he was one of the first to run from Yelm in wonderhome.


Let's look at a list of his victims;

Flamal
Yelmalio (who had already been sorely wounded by Orlanth and he had to ambush, he didn't even manage to kill him!)
Baby Yelm (who gave him a face full).

Uhhh, thats it.

A coward and a bully and his followers too.

 

[Trifletraxor]

Zorak Zoran Rules! He'd squash all your elven nancy pansies and use their bones for toothpicks! Yelmalio never recovered from the encounter.

SGL.

 

[soltakss]

This is pretty much the way I see it, too.

So, pretty much classic Zorak Zoran, I like it.