Cargo manipulation

[Spartan159]

In other words, how long does it take to move cargo around? What kind of loading/unloading times could a merchant expect? The cargo crane is "strong enough to lift full loaded 32 or 65 ton containers and can couple to most pallets and crates" which is nice, but how fast is it? The TL 7 loading belt does the work of 10 crewmen while the TL 12 version does the work of 25 crewmen, but just what does that mean? A grappling arm can handle 2 tons, while a heavy grappling arm can handle 10 tons, but what would be the transfer rates? How does starport class figure into this? At a class E you are probably on your own unless the broker/buyer/seller has proper equipment (which is what? Forklifts, container lifters, cranes, wheeled/tracked/grav trucks, cargo bots, what others?) If going by manpower, how many people/robots are in one starport stevedore unit? Lets say I'm at a class A starport. I have 6 crew assigned to cargo duties, a crane and a loading belt, and are working with starport stevedores, how many tons per what time unit could I move? That smuggler moving real food to Roup/Spinward Marches (Class C, TL 7) really needs to know how long he has to sit there. These are just some thoughts I've had on the subject, I look forward to some input. Better yet numbers. 8)

 

[phavoc]

There's a couple of things here that come into play. The first is the unloading from the ship to wherever (a waiting trailer, stacking them outside, etc), and then there is the internal shifting around of your cargo.

For the former, the methods used today are pretty much the same as they would be in the future - with some exceptions. You may find your forklifts being grav-based, instead of wheeled. And while there may be some efficiency there, it won't be a lot because today's containers loaders are pretty damn efficient. Safety will be your primary issue in the future as it is today. Moving the container from right outside the ship to a waiting transport should occur every few minutes. Additional time would need to be factored in if the drop-off location is further away. You also need to factor into account how cramped the space is where you are going to be doing the work - this is where a grav vehicle will do better than any other.

Inside the ship will depend slightly on the number of crew you have, as well as equipment. An overhead gantry system would work very well, as would a grav forklift / pallet jack. There are also low-tech solutions that are in use today (the floor has wheels that can be raised/lowered. to make everything slidable). Again your primary issue is going to be safety, so it's not unreasonable to provide the same unloading rate here. Limiting factors may be how fast the external cargo unloading is going, as well as how cramped the internal side is.

All that covers normal unloading. When you get into emergency or say unloading under fire, things change. Safety will be tossed along the side and then you would be looking at pure speed. A good rule of thumb would be to halve the timing, assuming you aren't just tossing the damn things out. It also depends on how much equipment you have - if you have enough unloading gear it will obviously go faster. Something else to consider is can you unload from multiple directions simultaneously? The subsidized merchant, for example, is a roll on/roll off style ship that you can unload from multiple sides. You mAY be able to unload from every side, however your cargo loading will factor into if that's even possible (loads will be tight, and you may not be able to access from the sides in that case).

 

[fusor]

Would PCs really be lugging huge cargo containers around though? I would have thought that most of the actual cargo traffic would be on huge space-going industrial container ships that never land and have all their containers mounted on the outside of the ship for easy access (something like this: http://turinuz.deviantart.com/art/Great-Space-Race-Space-Freighter-353499596 ) - meanwhile the PCs would be carrying the "little stuff" that can fit into their cargo holds.

 

[DickTurpin]

Book 6: Scoundrel has some information for cargo handling for pirating goods in a zero-G environment. Minor changes can easily be made to use the numbers for normal operations as well.

Moving a cargo container manually: Zero-G + Strength, 1-6 minutes, Difficult (-2).
Using a cargo Waldo: Automatic, 1-6 minutes per container.
Cargo robot: Automatic, two cargo containers per six minutes. - Could just be 3 minutes/container unless cargo robots are designed to carry two at once.
Grappling arm: Remote Operations + Dexterity, 1-6 minutes, moves a number of containers equal to the Effect of the check.

The loading belts would then move 10 or 25 tons in 1-6 minutes based on the rate listed above. Or just say 20 seconds/container for TL7 and 8 seconds/container for TL12 loading belts.

 

[Spartan159]

Phavoc: Thanks for the thoughts on the subject.

Fusor: I'm thinking containers in the 1 to 10 ton range, I agree with you that massive freight would be moved by the big ships.

DickTurpin: Ah, thanks for the heads up re: Scoundrel!

 

[phavoc]

Would PCs really be lugging huge cargo containers around though? I would have thought that most of the actual cargo traffic would be on huge space-going industrial container ships that never land and have all their containers mounted on the outside of the ship for easy access (something like this: http://turinuz.deviantart.com/art/Great-Space-Race-Space-Freighter-353499596 ) - meanwhile the PCs would be carrying the "little stuff" that can fit into their cargo holds.

Cargo would still be travelling in containers. The larger cargo vessels would be transporting standard-sized ones, much the same way that trucks, trains and container ships do today. Break-bulk cargo is a very inefficient way to move things.

PC-class ships would be moving smaller quantities, so 2/3/5/8/10 ton containers would be more the norm for them.

I would expect that larger containers ships in the future would utilize a more LASH like concept, where the cargo containers were loaded into larger containers/sections (much like what was in the illustration, except perhaps they would be more angular to maximize storage space) that could be wholly detached from the ship at a drop point within a system, and new ones that have already been pre-loaded and staged would take their place. For regular cargo routes for the larger ships I don't think they'd be in-system longer than 24hrs (or less).

 

[fusor]

Would PCs really be lugging huge cargo containers around though? I would have thought that most of the actual cargo traffic would be on huge space-going industrial container ships that never land and have all their containers mounted on the outside of the ship for easy access (something like this: http://turinuz.deviantart.com/art/Great-Space-Race-Space-Freighter-353499596 ) - meanwhile the PCs would be carrying the "little stuff" that can fit into their cargo holds.

Cargo would still be travelling in containers. The larger cargo vessels would be transporting standard-sized ones, much the same way that trucks, trains and container ships do today. Break-bulk cargo is a very inefficient way to move things.

PC-class ships would be moving smaller quantities, so 2/3/5/8/10 ton containers would be more the norm for them.

Just for comparison those big standardised 20ft and 40ft containers that you see on container ships, lorries and trains today are about 3 dt and 6 dt in volume respectively. How many of those could fit in a trader's cargo bay?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-foot_equivalent_unit#Equivalence

 

[phavoc]

Just for comparison those big standardised 20ft and 40ft containers that you see on container ships, lorries and trains today are about 3 dt and 6 dt in volume respectively. How many of those could fit in a trader's cargo bay?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-foot_equivalent_unit#Equivalence

I was gonna say you were wrong, but you aren't that far off the mark. A standard 45' container is 13.7m long 45 feet) / 2.44m wide (8 feet) and 2.6m tall 8.5 feet). The 6Dton container is 9m long / 3m wide, 3m tall. The half meter width really makes a difference.

 

[Infojunky]

Just for comparison those big standardised 20ft and 40ft containers that you see on container ships, lorries and trains today are about 3 dt and 6 dt in volume respectively. How many of those could fit in a trader's cargo bay?

The Standard Container in Traveller is 4 dTons... 3 x 3 x 6 meters. (2 by 4 squares).

 

[fusor]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-foot_equivalent_unit#Equivalence

I was gonna say you were wrong, but you aren't that far off the mark. A standard 45' container is 13.7m long 45 feet) / 2.44m wide (8 feet) and 2.6m tall 8.5 feet). The 6Dton container is 9m long / 3m wide, 3m tall. The half meter width really makes a difference.

I was going straight from the sizes and volumes in that table on the wiki. 13.5 m³ (or 14 m³) = 1 dt.

The Standard Container in Traveller is 4 dTons... 3 x 3 x 6 meters. (2 by 4 squares).

So that's a bit wider and higher than a 20' standard shipping container today.

 

[phavoc]

Just for comparison those big standardised 20ft and 40ft containers that you see on container ships, lorries and trains today are about 3 dt and 6 dt in volume respectively. How many of those could fit in a trader's cargo bay?

The Standard Container in Traveller is 4 dTons... 3 x 3 x 6 meters. (2 by 4 squares).

Right, but on Earth, we use different standards (much like railways have multiple gauge standards, which are slowly going away because it's more efficient to NOT have to stop and change axles...).

Internationally the standard shipping containers for ocean transport are 20, 40 and 45 feet. In the US standard containers are 20, 40, 48 and 53. The 40/48 is pretty common around the world, but not everyone has moved to 53 foot containers. It's mostly a US thing.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Just for comparison those big standardised 20ft and 40ft containers that you see on container ships, lorries and trains today are about 3 dt and 6 dt in volume respectively. How many of those could fit in a trader's cargo bay?

The Standard Container in Traveller is 4 dTons... 3 x 3 x 6 meters. (2 by 4 squares).

Except it can’t. The ceiling is only 2.5 meters tall, for the sake of the ducting. And you need wiggle room to fish one box out from the middle. Cargo has to be shipped in multiples of 2.5 cubic meter units to be workable. That leaves enough play for the cargo to be handled.

 

[Condottiere]

It might depend on what kind of feel you want to give the mercantile aspect of the experience.

If you re carting around small lots, I would bet a forklift would still come in useful, since even with contra grav handles, that cargo still has mass.

 

[Infojunky]

Except it can’t. The ceiling is only 2.5 meters tall, for the sake of the ducting. And you need wiggle room to fish one box out from the middle. Cargo has to be shipped in multiples of 2.5 cubic meter units to be workable. That leaves enough play for the cargo to be handled.

Wow, there a lot of assumptions in that. It assumes that one needs a deck every 3 meters, instead of decking and bulkheads as required around necessary ships equipment and components as real ships are built. It also assumes that a ship's volumes is a hard and fast number with no wiggle room (Hint, no edition of Traveller has assumed this).

Going off of what I know about Maritime shipping most Cargo holds are going to be some multiple of the the cargo they are shipping, plus a bit of room for securing said cargo and room for handling if the ship is geared. Thus in Traveller ships that are going to carry containerised cargo will have a holds based on a 6 meter increment, i.e. a 6 meter cube.

Now I will say that your numbers make kinda sense if one assumes that most cargo is handled in shirt sleeves environments. In something akin to oversized Aircraft Unit Load devices (Containers for Aircraft).

 

[Infojunky]

It might depend on what kind of feel you want to give the mercantile aspect of the experience.

If you re carting around small lots, I would bet a forklift would still come in useful, since even with contra grav handles, that cargo still has mass.

Long Lines of Robotic Stevedores?

 

[Condottiere]

Coolies.

Stevedores have Unions.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Except it can’t. The ceiling is only 2.5 meters tall, for the sake of the ducting. And you need wiggle room to fish one box out from the middle. Cargo has to be shipped in multiples of 2.5 cubic meter units to be workable. That leaves enough play for the cargo to be handled.

Wow, there a lot of assumptions in that. It assumes that one needs a deck every 3 meters, instead of decking and bulkheads as required around necessary ships equipment and components as real ships are built. It also assumes that a ship's volumes is a hard and fast number with no wiggle room (Hint, no edition of Traveller has assumed this).

Going off of what I know about Maritime shipping most Cargo holds are going to be some multiple of the the cargo they are shipping, plus a bit of room for securing said cargo and room for handling if the ship is geared. Thus in Traveller ships that are going to carry containerised cargo will have a holds based on a 6 meter increment, i.e. a 6 meter cube.

Now I will say that your numbers make kinda sense if one assumes that most cargo is handled in shirt sleeves environments. In something akin to oversized Aircraft Unit Load devices (Containers for Aircraft).

I worked those numbers out on the basis that a 30 dTon Cargo Module should be equivalent to a Standardized Shipping Container.

 

[phavoc]

Just for comparison those big standardised 20ft and 40ft containers that you see on container ships, lorries and trains today are about 3 dt and 6 dt in volume respectively. How many of those could fit in a trader's cargo bay?

The Standard Container in Traveller is 4 dTons... 3 x 3 x 6 meters. (2 by 4 squares).

Except it can’t. The ceiling is only 2.5 meters tall, for the sake of the ducting. And you need wiggle room to fish one box out from the middle. Cargo has to be shipped in multiples of 2.5 cubic meter units to be workable. That leaves enough play for the cargo to be handled.

It's close enough. I don't try to micromanage down to that level of detail because it's rather silly.

 

[-Daniel-]

The Standard Container in Traveller is 4 dTons... 3 x 3 x 6 meters. (2 by 4 squares).

Except it can’t. The ceiling is only 2.5 meters tall, for the sake of the ducting. And you need wiggle room to fish one box out from the middle. Cargo has to be shipped in multiples of 2.5 cubic meter units to be workable. That leaves enough play for the cargo to be handled.

It's close enough. I don't try to micromanage down to that level of detail because it's rather silly.

While I would not call it silly per say, I would say this highlights the need to understand what level of simulation do we want in our game. For me, I really don't care what the exact measurements are, I just want to play a game and use cargo once in a while to either make a cred and/or as an excuse to go see fringe worlds. But I do understand someone else might need a higher level of simulation in their game in order to enjoy it. Does not mean they are wrong, just that it is not for me. As such I feel the game designer does select a level they write the rules to and if it is not the level we want, we need to house rule it, or move on to another set of rules. It is clear to me that Tenacious-Techhunter is looking for a level of hard simulation that I just do not want nor need. But I wish him luck in his search.

 

[phavoc]

While I would not call it silly per say, I would say this highlights the need to understand what level of simulation do we want in our game. For me, I really don't care what the exact measurements are, I just want to play a game and use cargo once in a while to either make a cred and/or as an excuse to go see fringe worlds. But I do understand someone else might need a higher level of simulation in their game in order to enjoy it. Does not mean they are wrong, just that it is not for me. As such I feel the game designer does select a level they write the rules to and if it is not the level we want, we need to house rule it, or move on to another set of rules. It is clear to me that Tenacious-Techhunter is looking for a level of hard simulation that I just do not want nor need. But I wish him luck in his search.

Yup, I'm the same. 10 Dtons of cargo capacity means you can cram 10Dtons inside (unless we are talking about a 50' tall sculpture and your cargo bay ain't sized for that. That's when you, as the ref, have to game with your players just how in the world are they going to accomplish this. Otherwise it's fine. For me at least. I may draw the line if they have a 10Dton object and think they can tear it apart in their 10Dton cargo bay and work on it.