Can a kai use mind over matter as an attack?

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Anonymous

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Can a kai use tier 3 of mind over matter to pick up/throw/push living opponents away? (aka like jedi do).

The dessi's force grasp allows a dessi to do this even thought the dessi will never be able to pick up anything larger than tiny even at 20th level. The kai discipline is much stronger (550lbs at lvl20) but does not say anything in the text on this subject, whther it can be used offensively this way or not.

Normally I would adjudicate, but since the ability is quite powerful, it could make a big impact in gameplay. (pick up and toss that drakkarim deathknight off the cliff from 30' away...instant tko)
 
As it takes tier V to be able to move small objects with enough force to do damage, I'd say it's not possible to hurt anyone you moved with the discipline at tier III. As long as you can affect your opponents weight, I'd probably say you could possibly restrain them or push them around a little though. Of course, if they happened to be standing near the edge of a cliff at the time...

In other words, I'd make it a GM call on circumstance as to whether it could be used in any damaging way.
 
This is interesting I had this issue recently with a Giak sniper in a tree I ruled as the Giak was in an unstable position Mind Over Matter could just nudge him off of the branch.

Equally if someone was tottering at the edge of a cliff I would allow the Kai to send the to their doom or draw them to safety. It is potentialy very powerful though so to make life difficult for the Kai, I would impose a very large concentration check if they want to effect a moving being. Unless they were in an unbalanced position, to allow for their constant movement interfering with the discipline.
 
Remember that the speed is not really sufficient to cause damage in Mind over matter. Fifth tier will allow you to fling pebbles and such to do a little damage, but the movement of those large objects will be restricted to no more than walking pace.

The Dessi force grip shouldn't really be offensive either, though since it specifies using an 'invisible hand' I've ruled it can be used to choke opponents if they fail a reflex save, which paralyses them and does 1 Endurance damage a round. Even with this, its still a specialised power, since it drains alot of willpower for a relatively minor effect, but thats the idea, since they shouldn't be able to cause uberdeath with it!
 
If the Kai Lord can lift the weight, then in theory he could lift a living or sentient being high enough to cause falling damage when the Kai Lord lets go. However, I would give the opposing character a Reflex save to move out of the line of sight (or at least enough so the Kai Lord can't concentrate on lifting the target).
 
A official answer would be very nice, since again, I am not concerned about the speed, but the effect. Speed does not matter; it could be 1 feet per minute for all I care. The end result will be the same (said darklord tossed off cliff).

As it is, it can still be used as an attack (pick up 600 lbs carriage and drop it on opponent). But can it affect living beings like force grasp can?
 
Another question on this subject: would it be possible for a Kai Lord using Mind over Matter to disarm someone by simply MoM'ing their weapon away from them?
 
kourck said:
Another question on this subject: would it be possible for a Kai Lord using Mind over Matter to disarm someone by simply MoM'ing their weapon away from them?

I'd say that this usage of Mind over matter uses would require a Concentration check and allow the opponent an opposed reflex save, but it should be possible (alternatively, it could be like a ranged disarm action)

I am not concerned about the speed, but the effect. Speed does not matter; it could be 1 feet per minute for all I care. The end result will be the same (said darklord tossed off cliff).

As for lifting said Darklord over cliff, I'd say no. For starters, most of the Darklords look bloody heavy (they all look at least 7 foot tall and are described as being at least Large size in the Darklands book) and secondly, given that Mind over Matter is psychic application, they would likely block it with their extensive mental shielding, and thirdly, Mind over matter does nothing to alter the physical momentum of a creature, so it would be difficult to concentrate on a living being as it would be flailing and resisting like buggery.

Perhaps if combined with several applications of a Brotherhood Levitation spell (to slow them to 0 Ft base speed), then you could get your Kai to chuck em around a bit! But otherwise, no.
 
My saying darklord was just to mean 'random bad guy'. For instance a giak, dakkarim, vordak, etc etc etc.
 
Xex said:
My saying darklord was just to mean 'random bad guy'. For instance a giak, dakkarim, vordak, etc etc etc.

Well, regardless, rule number 3 would always apply, so it would be difficult.
 
Nit pick: By moving or altering the movement of something, the ability by definition allows the Kai Lord to overcome inertia. The property of momentum that resists change is inertia. Thus, as a technical answer, rule number three doesn't work.

Regardless, I am in agreement with simjimm's final decision, although my own reasoning is unashamedly arbitrary. :D

It would be possible to determe the exact force which the Kai Lord can apply (F = M x A), however the ability is not given an acceleration, simply a flat movement rate. This in itself is scientifically flawed, which has the advantage of meaning any particular decision the GM comes to cannot be argued against scientifically. :wink:
 
Ack, I hated motion physics- the worst part of science GCSE by far! :x

So yeah, Inertia and stuff might negate rule 3- but for the sake of the holy force of game balance (which overrides all natural laws) I'd still say no! :p
 
Here's an even better physics based reason not to worry too much about the need to defend your interpretation, whatever it is, using real science:

Kai moves stationary 10lb object 30': Force used = 10 (pounds) x 30 (feet per round acceleration) = 300
Kai keeps power active and continues to move object in a straight line: F = 10 x 0 (object is not accelerating simply moving at a constant speed) = 0
Kai moves same object back in the opposited direction. Force used = 10 x 60 (present momentum needs to be countered, hence twice as much acceleration required) = 600.
Kai ceases to use power: Force used = 10 x 30 = 300.

So, in three consecutive rounds, each using his maximum ability on the object in question, he was capable of exerting force equal to 300, then 0, then 600. When he dropped the power, force of 300 was applied from ???? ... nowhere? to stop the object.

And if the Kai chose to move a 50lb object, suddenly he's applying 5 times as much force ... theoretically, then, one would think he could move the lighter object much faster ... but no.

Given that in every instance, the exact same amount of effort was required, yet the amount of force being applied varied wildly, the ability is obviously no tied to real world physics. The same tends to be true of telekenetic abilities in most systems (IME).

Must be magic, hey? :wink:
 
Actually, while I agree with your basic premise on the whole thing, there is still the force used to counteract gravity the whole time. Whether TK is used to lift an object in the air or drag an object along the ground, you're still fighting gravity, a force much stronger than what is actually needed to change the momentum of an object.

I personally think Mind over Matter is much too powerful, especially as compared to what is used in the game books. Also, with this kind of power behind you, it can easily be abused, even if it wasn't used to attack (the Kai Lords have plenty ofother attack options, anyway. Mindblast is lethal!).

I'll likely change the rules slightly to fit my party when the Kai Lord takes this discipline, as he's already becoming more powerful than the rest (though the Buccaneer keeps rolling 1s, so that may be one reason).

Nerethel
 
I would say that as Lone Wolf never (as far as I can remember) used MOM to attack enemies in the gamebooks, that it can only be used to move/lift objects, rather than attack opponents with.

Just my opinion though, what does August think?

At the end of the day it's down to individual GMs to give their own interpretation to all of the grey areas in the book (not that there are many though).
 
Ok the whole ridiculous physics discussion aside, I only wanted an answer why it can't be used on living creatures, and why only objects.
 
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