Campaign question regarding Pak'ma'ra player

A quick question that might sound somewhat soft:

There is a player who wishes to join our ACtA group, and he wants to play pak'ma'ra but wants to field ships from any race and just "fly the pak'ma'ra' flag" so to speak on each vessel.

Thus, do you think that this is balanced?

He is only fielding his list with each ship being labelled as Unique, but with no other restrictions. [thus, he can mix and match from any list from all races!]


Thoughts?

[I voted that he may play with that list, so long as he didnt field any Minbari or Vorlon or Shadow ships, but all others are allowed]
 
I'd say that everyone would have to agree. You are opening a big can of worms if you allow him access to anything he wants. He will be able to cover any weakness the ships from anyone particular fleet will have. Only being able to take one of any ship will go a way towards offsetting this, but he will have a huge selection.

It also comes down to how well you know the person and how friendly a campaign you are running. If you know the person well and are running a very friendly game it's probably no problem.
 
I would restrict him to other league member ships. What he is likely looking for is scouts. I love vree scouts with the Pakmara. :twisted:


Dave
 
If you're looking for League scouts then I'd go for a couple of Drazi Eyehawks, but if you want the ship to take part in the shooting too then a Vree Vaarl is possibly better.
 
I would say just play a combined league. If he wants to fly the pak'ma'ra flag on all of them that his choice but basically what he is asking for is to play an expanded league fleet to include all fleets which is a bit much. Even knocking out Shadows, Vorlons, Minbari, Drahk, PSI Corp and ISA (all the 'High Tech' races) that still leaves him with EA (all eras), Centauri, Narn and the entire league which IMO is a bit too much.

Personally a combined league fleet can be a serious force to be reckoned with if played correctly. I wouldn't think anyone would need anymore then that.
 
There are rules for the Pak so I dont see why these should change.
I would allow in my games the ability to salvage ships left running adrift/burned out after a battle in which they fight but he must start with the original Pak fleet

Allowing him access to all the fleets & all the ships would make his fleet too unbalanced

But as others hae said - it is up to your group
 
Triggy said:
If you're looking for League scouts then I'd go for a couple of Drazi Eyehawks, but if you want the ship to take part in the shooting too then a Vree Vaarl is possibly better.

Why the eyehawk over the Vaarl? The +1 to CQ checks for the Vree and the stealth 5+ is worth the increase in PL cost.


Dave
 
I agree with Daishi. He starts with the basic pak list and adds ships from salvage, as per the rules.

All the lists :shock: Since when do Vorlons and Shadows have a grudge against carrion eaters? (especially since I doubt either race needs to eat anymore) Besides, replacing Shadowtech with typical pak stuff would be really hard.

Also, why would the pak want strike carriers? It's not like their versions of a fighter'll fit on the bloody thing anyway. And I have a hard time seeing a Tagrath outfitted with plasma weapons, in addition to all the other "stuff" pak put in their ships. (wishes there was a sickened emoticon)
 
The fleet lists allow for a combined league fleet, since playing pak ships in that continues to offer the initiative disadvantage of the pak fleet yet allowing access to the full range of league ships. Tell the player to play that fleet in the campaign.

Then they can use the pak'ma'ra ships as a core and so are more likely to get pak rolls, and given that does include a number of other league hulls its pretty widespread in terms of options of ships.

Then he is flying the pak flag, can paint them in pak colours where it doesnt confuse the issue etc etc. He can cover his pak weaknesses at a cost of losing some of the specials - or diluting them with other racial abilities. The combined league fleet seems to do what he wants in concept without handing them intolerable advantages yielded by 'oh everything is unique'
 
Davesaint said:
Triggy said:
If you're looking for League scouts then I'd go for a couple of Drazi Eyehawks, but if you want the ship to take part in the shooting too then a Vree Vaarl is possibly better.

Why the eyehawk over the Vaarl? The +1 to CQ checks for the Vree and the stealth 5+ is worth the increase in PL cost.


Dave
Use the Eyehawk because you get an average of one successful scout roll per turn (and a 0.75 chance of getting at least one) compared to an average of 0.67 with the Vaarl.

You say that the Vaarl is better protected - that's part of the reason I said I'd take a Vaarl if I wanted it to do some shooting. However, if they are purely supporting the rest of the fleet, Eyehawks are better for actual scout rolls.
 
I;d say if he wants to play a mixed fleet h e should use the mixed league fleet rules with as many Pak & league ships as he likes, supplemented by the Scavenging rule.

LBH
 
lastbesthope said:
I;d say if he wants to play a mixed fleet h e should use the mixed league fleet rules with as many Pak & league ships as he likes, supplemented by the Scavenging rule.

LBH
Have I been misreading the Scavenging rule? I don't see where it allows the Pak player to field the scavenged ships, just get RR for them.

We do have a house rule allowing the use of captured ships, but that applies to any race (except Shadow and Vorlon of course).
 
no you havent read the rule wrong - It does state that Pak players get RR points only for ships leeft onboard eg. running adrift burned out

we house ruled any ships can be slavaged by the winner but has to spend the points repairing it we also allowed Pak players to either get the normal RR points & NO salvage or get half RR & salvage ship

Most of the time it isnt worth it to salvage as cost is usually prohibitive to repair but if you really want the ship for its abilities eg firepower & you dont have access to it (since it is another races) then it becomes a trade off but you still rolled on your own fleet list for upgrades & kept any upgrades the ship had . It made experienced ships a more valuable asset/target
 
By allowing this player to field what he has been suggesting, our group of ACtA will grow to 7 players. Thus, I am inclined to vote 'Yes' to his proposal merely on the grounds of gaining additional players to our group.

However, I as well as others in the group clearly see the potential for abuse here, but we are hoping it doesnt come to that.
 
If the player in question is likely to take advantage, then do you really want to risk losing the other 6 players and the campaign collapsing because they get annoyed at being taken advantage of?

If the player in question is not likely to take advantage, why is the compromise of the Combined League fleet not likely to be accepted given the enormous range of ships available to such a fleet anyway?

If the player just thinks they have a 'cool idea' and doesn't realise just how unbalanced an idea this could be but likes the idea of covering some pak weaknesses, and choosing a lot of ships then hard-sell that Combined League fleet to them by matching its benefits with the player's wants.

Also if you allow the original idea wholesale and then get another player join in the future, or a player decides to include pak'ma'ra themselves in their fleet, or just change their fleet - will you give them the same rules advantage/options. What list will you let them make up? You have set a BIG precedent.

If this boils down to a the player liking rule of 'We'd like to permanently capture enemy ships and add them to our fleet' then you need to make an inclusive rule for it - everyone should be able to take advantage. Bar those fleets you consider unstealable intact you mentioned Vorlons and Shadows). Then put a limit on how many points/ships can be maintained, put a limit on how many points/ships that have been captured can be converted to friendly use. Require an RR cost to keep the ship going in friendly use or it goes to mothballs until 2x one turn's RR required is paid, base that on its PL because they have to deal with unfamiliar tech and that sucks resources...and then the pak have an inherent RR advantage in that they if they keep on capping enemy ships then they can keep spending those extra RR points on supporting stolen tech and be more able to do so than other players - in a manner that is within existing balance structures of points gained for a race because points spent like this cannot be spent on other things. In other words introduce new ideas to the campaign in a balanced fashion, not as one player's toys.

Sorry, but the more I look at this the worse an idea it seems to me as originally quoted. Ultimately having unique choice from any list allows you to cherry pick the ultimate ship range. This is not flavour, this is min maxing without the restrictions of even the Combined League fleet. There are some ideas/concepts that might be addable to an ongoing campaign but only if done in an appropriate fashion that benefits anyone with an eye on the concept, not just the new player.
 
Good post Myrm.


Well, after talking to this player on the cellphone, it turns out that he has a few B5 minis that are over 3 years old, and since he is tight on money at the moment, he wanted to play ACtA through the use of his current miniatures (shich are Minbari, EA, Narn and Centauri) before he settled on a given fleet... and the pak'ma'ra fit this mould.

I certainly am for additional players for our little group of players, but not at the cost of harming or pissing the majority for the sake of the minority.


Thanks for the responses guys.
 
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