Buying books - The end of an Era?

[saberj]

Personally, I hate to even bring this subject up. Mostly because I love to support my local comic shop, and would hate to see them go the way of CD stores, in that they get outsold in their own domain by Walmart. But, I just find this so crazy that I had to bring it up here.

I don't know how many people have paid much attention to the Walmart website. Pretty recently, walmart.com has begun to sale RPG books REALLY cheap. How cheap you may ask? Well some books may have a mark down of a couple bucks, such as Mutants and Masterminds. But then there are some books, such as our own beloved Babylon 5 that you can get for almost half price. That's right. The main source book, I bought for $45, but at walmart.com, it's only $28.32. The Fiery Trial and the Minbari Federation caste book are both a steal for only $15.72. That's 3 books for only $60, and it's highly insane, imo. Though I highly doubt the legitimacy, all three of those books are listed as in stock. The one other book that they have listed is the Centauri book for $21.21. It's not in stock, obviously, and they dont even have the title for it yet, it's just listed as Babylon 5. But it's ISBN matches the Centauri Book.

Now upon seeing Walmart's prices for these books, I looked to see what Amazon was charging. Some of the the books are slightly more exspencive, while some of them are even cheaper. The main sourcebook is $32.47, and the paperbacks follow that pattern being approximatly $2 more exspencive than at Walmart's site. The Centauri book however, is slightly cheaper at $17.47.

Now, does anyone find all this weird, besides me? I mean granted, you add in a couple bucks in shipping, and you add a rather long wait onto something you could have that same day. But in a day where RPG books are costing you $45, does anyone see this leading towards a change in how people buy their books? Personally, I don't want Walmart and Amazon to run the local stores out of business. But in many cases, the evidence against the local companies is too great to ignore. What does everyone else think?

 

[redlaco]

You hit an important nail, saberj !

I'm torn between my willingness to support my local gaming store and to shop at Amazon. With their "free shipping" policy, Amazon prices are so cheap that in the long run, I can buy a couple more sourcebooks for the same overall price. :|

Caught between moral principles and a drying wallet, I came to a compromise (as with so many things in life) : For every book that I buy from Amazon, I buy the next one at my local gaming store. I know it's a cheap way around the problem, but it works for me...

 

[saberj]

You hit an important nail, saberj !

I'm torn between my willingness to support my local gaming store and to shop at Amazon. With their "free shipping" policy, Amazon prices are so cheap that in the long run, I can buy a couple more sourcebooks for the same overall price. :|

Caught between moral principles and a drying wallet, I came to a compromise (as with so many things in life) : For every book that I buy from Amazon, I buy the next one at my local gaming store. I know it's a cheap way around the problem, but it works for me...

I believe that is a good compromise, personally. I know alot of people would say that it is still detracting from the sales of the comic store, but I dont agree with that. Because for me, it's not a matter of buying x amount of books. Instead, it's a matter of spending the money I actually have. So If I have $60, there is no way I can get more than one book from the comic book store. I could instead take the extra money, and get a book from amazon. Since it wasnt possible to buy that book from the store, are you really cheating them out of a sale?

Personally, this is my problem with all the "Save the Music" campaigns. They say that X amount of songs are downloaded off the internet each day, which results in billions of dollars lost to the recording industry. But the fact of the matter is, for every 20 cds downloaded off the internet, maybe 1 of those would've been bought. Which is obviously still a loss, but my problem lies in the way they present the facts.

Luckily, we aren't stealing anything in this circumstance, but true fans cant help but to feel guilty about going for the better price. What is a person to do? PErhaps do your best to support the comic book shop when you can and have the money to spare. But when the money is tight, just remember that you are at least still helping the publisher. Is there a right or wrong answer? Who knows.

 

[hassanisabbah]

Its an interesting subject especially as you mention comic shops. For years comic book shops have managed to survive, despite charging more for comics, than newsagents. In the UK this is largely chalked up to the fact that the comic shop gets them quicker, but it also gets a better deal as it has a no returns policy (which Newsagents do get).

As a result of the Direct Market comics thrived rather than fell, because suddenly comic companies could cut the required sales levels on the direct market dramatically (about 50% of comics via the newsagents are returned), and distributors could reduce their overheads (no returns). This also led to the foundation of the huge indie comic scene, as small print runs became profitable. Indeed the types of comic sold through news and print outlets is wildly different than the lines carried in comic shops. It also meant by not selling direct, a large amount of the cost of distribution could be made up by using an distrubution company (sending 10 copies per store is less profitable than the entire printing to a distributor). Indeed a profit can be made on as little as 2500 sales (esp seeing orders are made 3 months in advance, so ecconomised print runs can be established by the publisher).

Walmart of course can afford a much bigger discount due to bulk purchases and the fact that other lines can help carry a product (thus it can justify a much lower profit margin) - Especially if it has negoitaited a returns policy (it doesn't have to cover unsold stock).

The classic problem is that the market needs both the large chains (to increase its customer basis into new areas) and the small game shops (to support an existing basis and smaller and independent games). Personally sort of agreement similar to the comics direct market, to protect the interest of the small games shop, but that allows the large retailers to carry the same stock.

Games like B5 may appeal to a massive alternative market (non-gamers), that in turn could be led back into the smaller gaming market, which would of course be good for both retailers and the RPG industry, but a compromise has to exist to ensure that the both markets are supported and remain viable. Walmart sized chains are unlikely to want to carry games that have little in the way of marketing or product identity, prefering probably to go with the big titles such as B5, White Wolf, Wizards of the Coast etc... But these companys will soon lose interest if the product is not selling enough copies to justify its shelf space.

I take the presumption that Walmart must already sell Dungeons and Dragons 3rd Edition.

 

[coyraven]

I take the presumption that Walmart must already sell Dungeons and Dragons 3rd Edition.

I have never seen it in their stores, but d&d products can be found on their website. I believe the new 3.5 core books can be found for just over 30%.

CR

 

[saberj]

Games like B5 may appeal to a massive alternative market (non-gamers), that in turn could be led back into the smaller gaming market, which would of course be good for both retailers and the RPG industry, but a compromise has to exist to ensure that the both markets are supported and remain viable. Walmart sized chains are unlikely to want to carry games that have little in the way of marketing or product identity, prefering probably to go with the big titles such as B5, White Wolf, Wizards of the Coast etc... But these companys will soon lose interest if the product is not selling enough copies to justify its shelf space.

I take the presumption that Walmart must already sell Dungeons and Dragons 3rd Edition.

Actually, only walmart.com sells RPG books. The actual Walmart stores do not, that I have ever seen. In fact, my Walmart only carries like 2 comics these days. And those are Ultimate Marvel titles. But, the range of titles that Walmart.com carries is VERY large. D&D, Any Whitewolf game pretty much, B5, Nobilis, etc. I'm sure that there is quite a bit of a need for comic book stores, but the point is this. If all of a sudden you can get your gaming books for a decent price without having to leave the comforts of your home, what incenitive besides loyalty do you have to go out and pay $20 more? Obviously Speed is an issue at some places. But then in that same line of thought, some places could probably have it shipped to you by the next day. Whereas, it's always a gamble of whether or not your local comic shop will have you a copy waiting, unless you preorder it. And if you DO preorder it, you could've just as easily preordered it online, and probably saved even more money.

I don't know about the whole return policy issue that you bring up. Personally, I live in a city of about 250,000, and I don't think I've ever seen a "Newsagent". You either get it at a comic book store, or hope and pray that Walmart has it. Which is more often than not, a feeble wish. Granted, in theory you can convince Walmart to let you return anything, though I believe you would be hard-pressed to find someone that would allow you to return a comic or even an RPG. So I think that is only an issue for the UK. Anyway, you say that Comic Shops get better deals, but this is exactly my point. They either ARENT getting better deals than Walmart, or they just arent passing them on to consumers. I doubt that they are getting better deals, personally. Because the more of something you order, the cheaper it's going to be overall. And Walmart orders in mass numbers.

As I said, Walmart and a few other large chains are well known for being responsible for driving music chains out of business. Mostly because they can sell a $9 cd for $10-12 and make a profit. Whereas CD stores generally sell them for $14. So everyone buys there music at Walmart, Best Buy, etc and it kills off the Sam Goody's and Musiclands of the world. This is just a fear of mine that Walmart may end up damaging the Comic shops by offering their products. And if this happens, we may as well hand of the reigns to walmart so they control what we play and read. That seems to be what they are doing with music and Video Games, currently.

 

[redlaco]

Yes, and this sort of thought lead me to say that we may have a long term advantage to buy from a specialist. Yes, it will come at higher prices, but at least they know (hopefully) about what they're selling. Since they're specialised, they will try to have at least one copy of most RPGs, not just those high profile game$. Also, they have the contacts to order the rest if necessary. Try to place a special order in a Wal-Mart for fun and see their smile disappear. :arrow: :|

Especially since Walmart has been known to systematicaly censor music albums with a "parental advisory" sticker on it. I wouldn't want to see the same happening to RPGs (see also the thread on the new WotC policy).

Here's an excerpt from a MetroActive feature published in 1997 following the censorship of Korn and rapper Snoop Doggy Dogg :

Still, I ask the young clerk why they don't have it. "It's a family store," he elaborates. "We don't carry other things that might bother people, like Marilyn Manson or Korn either."

These are hit records. Up the street at a chain record store, they are arrayed on the wall in the Billboard Hot 100 display. Does anybody at Wal-Mart--which has an outlet in Rohnert Park and another planned for Windsor--ever complain about their absence? "Some people do," he shrugs. "But it's Wal-Mart; it's not a real record store."

 

[hassanisabbah]

In my local town we have one RPG Stockest (poor), two bookstores that dabble, 2 huge HMVs, a virgin megastore, 2 Independent Record Stores, 4-5 independent second hand and collectors record stores, one comic shop, one bookshop that stocks new comics only (but has a huge amount), and several computer game outlets, including one new and old independent.

All of these are very close to each other (it takes about 10 minutes to cover the entire town centre) - All have been in business for a good 5-10 years, and look likely to continue (though the small virgin outlet has been run out of business).

On line retail is probably the way of the future though. I rarely shop in town anymore, beacause its so expensive. In the end whether its on-line or in store purchasing doesn't make a difference (Big Company or Small Company) its still just business. On-line allows a vast reduction in overheads (you could run an on-line games store from your home just about, with one or two staff).

It'll be a shame to lose the local stores (well except my one), but as they serve no real purpose that a games club doesn't, then its not really that bigger loss, provided we can keep a grass roots level of interest in the hobby - ala gaming clubs (which don't have to be in store). Alternatively they could look into expanding into on-line business but should be warned that profit is actually quite low, but increasing.

Games Stores need to evolve in order to stay alive (Leisure Games for Example and Orcs Nest provide excellent on-line services, and are generally easier to deal with than Amazon).

 

[Anonymous]

One thing a local gaming store can offer is a place to meet local folks who share the hobby and a place to play.

I buy from my local store because it offers a place to play.

Yes, I pay more for each purchase but I consider that a small price to pay for the gaming space provided.

We had a local gaming club that met in the education center of the church I belong to and paid a modest $40 a month to be able to play there for 12 hours each week. That was cheap compaired to what a hotel or community center would charge. Collages are another good place to find cheap or free space, espically in a student union.

Our local store provided space for "free" and is open for play about 55 hours each week.

Of course my wife would kill me if I spent all that time playing.

Sidney

 

[hassanisabbah]

Yeah! I prefered Gaming Clubs as a place to meet people, as opposed to the store. Generally you can find some where free and cheap, but how do you get your clubs details across. The old classifieds and stuff in Dragon and S*ite Dwarf? BBS seem the way to go, Leisure Games has a nice one.

PS We are looking for one, possibly two, new gamers in the Reading area, preferably into slightly more mature gaming (we don't mean porno or white wolf - Rather actually roleplaying - Munchkins can kiss my shiny metal donkey) to start up around say end of the month. Lifts to alternative locations can be arranged.

That kind of thing we need, would it harm most RPG companies to have a link or even such a page on their site?

 

[Dace]

For my part money is an issue. Thus I find myself buying online for books when I can find them and time is not an issue. I mean I do belive in supporting my local gaming store and all but I'm torn between funding my hobby or going with out. When I can afford to I will often go down and buy from the gaming store.

The only reason I buy at the gaming store now adays though is because I acutally know those who work there and thus I feel like supporting them. That's really the main reason why I do it when I can. Otherwise I'm very inclined to save a few bucks here and there and get what I want online.

But it is hard at times. Some of these books are not cheap. The B5 seris is pretty steap in price, I understand why but you know I'm not made of money . I'm still waiting for Christmas so I can get some extra money to get the $50 Stargate SG 1 book.

If buying from my local store overall was cheaper I'd still be more than willing to do it. But such is life.