Bull Rush, Bull Strike, etc.

[LucaCherstich]

I'm curious about your interpretation of bull rushes.
I think that (ideally speaking) they looks like great combat moves but relating them are a bit unclear especially because the rules do not specify how the target can be put prone or knocked down.
My questions are:

1)
According to the core rules (Maneuvrs section) The effect of a Bull rush is moving an enemy of (at least) 5 foot AND almost NOTHING ELSE.
But if you fail you move back 5 foot and, if you finish upon an occupied square, you are PRONE.
So, technically speaking it looks like USELESS since you can be put prone...but your enemy not!
I feel this is the result of some text omission.
My homerule is that if the target is moved into an occupied square he ends prone too.

2)
Bull rush can be done together with a charge getting a +2 in the Bull rush check...does it men that, instead of attacking during a charge you just Bull rush?
I think this is the interpretation.

3)
The feat "Bull Strike" (Hyborias' Fiercest Page. 69) is a usefull "Mod" of the bull rushes rules but at some point it states that: "If the opponent is knocked or falls down during the bull rush, he is considered to be prone for the attack"
SO the "Prone" part relates to this feat BUT the "Knocked or fall down" part CERTAINLY relates to normal Bull Rush rules.
HOW CAN YOU MAKE AN ENEMY FALL OR BE KNOCKED DOWN DURING A NORMAL BULL RUSH???
Core Rules seems to be silent about it.
How do you interpret the situation?

 

[VincentDarlage]

Falling Prone during Bull Rush
"If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space." I have ruled in the past that if someone is bull rushed into an occupied space, the defender and the person in that space fall prone. You see that in the movies a lot - someone rushes someone into someone else, knocking both down.

Otherwise, GM fiat. If someone bull rushes someone to a railing, he might be shoved over it - or bull rushed toward a person on all fours waiting for him. Sometimes the terrain calls for it. Someone doing an attack of opportunity might do a trip attack. A defender might drop prone for some reason (perhaps as a Delayed action because he anticipates the bull rush).

Sometimes you just have to visualize the action and make the appropriate call, even if it is not in the letter of the rules.

Useless?
As for it being useless? No. I had a group of players walking through the Pictish wilderness. Hidden on one side of the trail were 10 Picts in two rows perpendicular to the trail. On the other side was three Picts.

When the last person on the trail passed in between the two groups of Picts, one Pict bull rushed that one into the group of ten Picts, who all got attacks of opportunity on the poor PC. The next to last turned around, moved into position, and the second Pict bull rushed him into the ten - same scenario.

If you bull rush someone into your friends, they get attacks of opportunity. If you have enough friends, they can kill the guy you are bull rushing. Sure, you might take some damage too, but there are ways to minimize that.

I have had people bull rush enemies off of cliffs, or into spear traps. Imagine bull rushing someone into a friend (or a couple of friends) who have set their spear for the charge...

Extremely useful action, as I see it - especially for a group of people determined to act as a team.

Charge during Bull Rush
Yes. You can Bull Rush during a charge.

How to Interpret the Situation
See my answer to number 1. I have had plenty of villains (and players) fall prone as the defender of the bull rush because of the situation. The rules cannot cover every possible situation.

 

[LucaCherstich]

I know that GM judgement is final rule, always.
It is only that I recently had very bothersome players, so I was wondering wether I could show them some rule written somewhere, instead that the usual "I'm the the GM, your attempt of overcomplaining just sucks" .

"If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space." I have ruled in the past that if someone is bull rushed into an occupied space, the defender and the person in that space fall prone.

I like this rule and I guess this is an unwritten rule which is not explicitely written anywhere in any book.
Am I wrong?

I just have 2 doubts:
1)
the two ("bull-rushed" person and "man in the square") cannot be in the same square, so I think that the "man in the square" should be also moved of 5 feet.
2)
The bull-rushed person failed a check, so its "Prone" situation is fair, but I do not think it is fair to make the "man in the square" automatically prone.
My propose is to allow him a bull-rush check (as the defender) or, at least, a balance check just to move in another square.

Off course peculiar situations with peculiar battlefields (slippery ship floors, small tunnels, etc.) will require ad-hoc judgements by the GM.

Someone doing an attack of opportunity might do a trip attack.

I never thought of this different way of using attacks of opportunity (after all a trip attack normally is a standard action...) but i like this homerule

A defender might drop prone for some reason (perhaps as a Delayed action because he anticipates the bull rush).

Sorry but I do not understand this situation.

As for it being useless? No. I had a group of players walking through the Pictish wilderness. Hidden on one side of the trail were 10 Picts in two rows perpendicular to the trail. On the other side was three Picts.

When the last person on the trail passed in between the two groups of Picts, one Pict bull rushed that one into the group of ten Picts, who all got attacks of opportunity on the poor PC. The next to last turned around, moved into position, and the second Pict bull rushed him into the ten - same scenario.

Thank you for this great scene suggestion!

Yes. You can Bull Rush during a charge.

OK (cole rules say that you get +2 bonus in the bull rush check) but I interpret it this way:
You charge but, instead of making an attack, you make a bull rush.
Off course if you have the right feat ("Drive Your Enemy
Before You") you can do both.