I object. The printed copy is a KS exclusive. It wasn’t offered as a KS exclusive for “a decent time period”. To print it again outside of the KS would devalue to the point of invalidating future promises of KS exclusives.
Bu and Embla’s Guide to Starports of the Marches - PDF Released!
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
Yeah, I personally never care if other people can get things that I have. I back kickstarters to to get things sooner or to make sure they happen at all, not to keep others from getting them. But that's certainly not how everyone views stretch goals and bonus items. I think releasing the product as a pdf, but not reprinting it in hard copy, is a reasonable compromise. Like how the slipcover version of the JTAS are only for the backers.
Avestite
Mongoose
I'm a printed book in my hand kinda guy, pdfs are a bonus for printing stuff out for a game, so that's one sale 'pdf only' loses.
I COULD have backed the KS but I've got issues with KS as a company, so I'm a bit stuck.
Now, I'm happy to wait for it to be rolled into a full sized omnibus edition along with later sagas
Just seems a bit 'dog in the manger' to deny a quality product to folk.
I COULD have backed the KS but I've got issues with KS as a company, so I'm a bit stuck.
Now, I'm happy to wait for it to be rolled into a full sized omnibus edition along with later sagas
Just seems a bit 'dog in the manger' to deny a quality product to folk.
Personally, I put all that on the company/designer. If they choose to use kickstarter, then that's what they are using. And if they say something is "exclusive", they are promising it to be exclusive. Those are decisions they made. My feeling is that content should not be exclusive, because that's bad for the designer in the long run. But one would hope they know their business better than I do.
But in this case, its not the content that is exclusive, its the format. I don't know that a consumer's choice not to use kickstarter and not to buy PDFs is any more or less valid than a consumer's choice to want things promised to be exclusive to actually be exclusive. If you want to say someone is being 'dog in the manger' (which I wouldn't, but whatever), then you should be addressing Mongoose, not their backers.
But in this case, its not the content that is exclusive, its the format. I don't know that a consumer's choice not to use kickstarter and not to buy PDFs is any more or less valid than a consumer's choice to want things promised to be exclusive to actually be exclusive. If you want to say someone is being 'dog in the manger' (which I wouldn't, but whatever), then you should be addressing Mongoose, not their backers.
OriginalCaruso
Mongoose
Times change and economic decisions which made sense at a given point in time do not always survive the long term.
Ultimately the intellectual property holder has the right to determine what they do. I expect an expanded product would not be objectionable being different to the original, just as core rule books undergo periodic revision.
There appears to be demand for an upgraded version so how about it?
Ultimately the intellectual property holder has the right to determine what they do. I expect an expanded product would not be objectionable being different to the original, just as core rule books undergo periodic revision.
There appears to be demand for an upgraded version so how about it?
I don’t think the “dog in the manger” metaphor is apt. People have the physical book, and it was promised to them as an exclusive. I don’t think these will explode in value, but it’s more about Mongoose holding themselves to their stated commitment. It would devalue the value of their word if they did so, and that’s something companies shouldn’t damage.
I don’t believe that prevents them from including some of the material in the books from being included in a later product, but the specific product itself ought not be reprinted as is, and I think that would include not reprinting it on a slightly different size of paper.
I don’t believe that prevents them from including some of the material in the books from being included in a later product, but the specific product itself ought not be reprinted as is, and I think that would include not reprinting it on a slightly different size of paper.
Not to mention that "dog in the manger" specifically refers to a situation where someone owns something they can't use and refuses to make it available to those who can. For instance, the rights holder for all the DGP Traveller material is pulling a dog in the manger. He has the rights to the product but has no use for them. Nevertheless, he refuses to sell or license them to anyone else either.
Keeping something you can use exclusive in line with an existing agreement is, in fact, not a dog in the manger situation regardless of what you think about the concept of exclusive content.
And that's your daily language nitpick for Thursday, May 18th.
Keeping something you can use exclusive in line with an existing agreement is, in fact, not a dog in the manger situation regardless of what you think about the concept of exclusive content.
And that's your daily language nitpick for Thursday, May 18th.
paltrysum
Emperor Mongoose
What a crappy situation that is, huh? I suspect that those copyrights will pass on with the individual, never to be seen again. Damned shame, really.
Definitely a crappy situation, but someone will get them. Maybe they'll be more reasonable. Though who knows when that will be or who would be around to still to want to hunt them down.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The hook to the DGP Starship Operator's Manual were the recollections of the old timer - not to mention an attempt to explain how stuff works (sadly the authors opted for unscientific technobabble).
I have two suggestions for the MgT Starship Operator's Manual - which will overwrite the DGP version anyway.
1. have appendices that cover stutterwarp, hyperdrive and all the other tech in HG that is not in the Third Imperium
2. use Bu and Embla anecdotes in sidebars...
I have two suggestions for the MgT Starship Operator's Manual - which will overwrite the DGP version anyway.
1. have appendices that cover stutterwarp, hyperdrive and all the other tech in HG that is not in the Third Imperium
2. use Bu and Embla anecdotes in sidebars...
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Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Retitle it (Aero)space Engineer's Handbook.
Or Aero/Space.
Or just Space.
Or Aero/Space.
Or just Space.
What Bu and Embla collectively know about spacecraft could be written on the back of a decently-sized stamp
We tried to touch on this - there are some excerpts that sort of explain the learning skills in jump idea - but that wasn't the focus of the book. I personally wanted to get across the bond the two had, and had a lot of fun exploring the characters in the diary entries, too. It helped flesh them out in my mind.
But yes, we were not particularly well equipped for... anything, really. Here's a scan of my character sheet which should help explain.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
What does artificial gravity feel like?
How adaptive is a stateroom?
What are the food preparation areas like?
What are the sounds and smells?
What does the transition to jump space feel like?
How busy are the crew?
What's the difference between the experience of travelling on a TL10 merchant compared with a TL15?
Those sorts of questions are what I want the book to answer - not some Star Wars physics explanation of thruster plates.
How adaptive is a stateroom?
What are the food preparation areas like?
What are the sounds and smells?
What does the transition to jump space feel like?
How busy are the crew?
What's the difference between the experience of travelling on a TL10 merchant compared with a TL15?
Those sorts of questions are what I want the book to answer - not some Star Wars physics explanation of thruster plates.
Yeah, I definitely agree with Sigtrygg on this one. Traveller is historically lacking in flavor text that's player facing. We get a lot of cool detail on how to do things in the mechanics and what stuff exists (as well as some technobabble about how it works), but rarely do we get much info on what the character doing those things experiences or what they are doing looks like in the fiction.
At least for me, what is great about the Starport guide is not all the new stat blocks, its all the detail from the character's perspective. What they see, how things feel, what's different about being on planet A vs being on planet B, stuff that's memorable. "Let's head back to Mora." "Wait, which one was Mora again?" "The one with the giant pagan statues where you almost got run over by that hovercart." "oh right."
Bu and Embla are funny, but if you want to use different characters in the future, that's fine. They do make good examples of ingenues who don't necessarily know more than the players do. But I would love a lot more what the character experiences/does in the Starship Operator's Manual than how the gobbledygook connects to the doobleydo.
At least for me, what is great about the Starport guide is not all the new stat blocks, its all the detail from the character's perspective. What they see, how things feel, what's different about being on planet A vs being on planet B, stuff that's memorable. "Let's head back to Mora." "Wait, which one was Mora again?" "The one with the giant pagan statues where you almost got run over by that hovercart." "oh right."
Bu and Embla are funny, but if you want to use different characters in the future, that's fine. They do make good examples of ingenues who don't necessarily know more than the players do. But I would love a lot more what the character experiences/does in the Starship Operator's Manual than how the gobbledygook connects to the doobleydo.
paltrysum
Emperor Mongoose
Good discussion. Alright, I'm going to play a little devil's advocate here for conversation's sake. The MegaTraveller Starship Operator's Manual is an outlier, the only book that I can recall written from the perspective of a character narrator up to that point. Bu & Embla are a second outlier, in a very unusual type of book for Traveller.
Dating back to Classic Traveller, the game has usually taken a fairly dry, "just the facts, ma'am" approach in its writing. I agree that reading Traveller books should be entertaining, but if we start inserting too many narrators, it will lose its novelty. So to boil it down, if we were to use this narrative device here and there in future Traveller books, which types of books do we limit it to? I like it too, but I would prefer that we keep the style similar to that of CT with the occasional narrator-driven book for fun.
Dating back to Classic Traveller, the game has usually taken a fairly dry, "just the facts, ma'am" approach in its writing. I agree that reading Traveller books should be entertaining, but if we start inserting too many narrators, it will lose its novelty. So to boil it down, if we were to use this narrative device here and there in future Traveller books, which types of books do we limit it to? I like it too, but I would prefer that we keep the style similar to that of CT with the occasional narrator-driven book for fun.
Entertainment value is not what I am looking for. That's useful, but secondary. I am talking about useful information about what the character is doing/experiencing when they do stuff. I mean, its great to know that you need Engineer 1 to do this or that job on a starship. But the player needs to know what their character is doing, not how the made up tech does made up stuff.
Similarly, its nice to know that planet A has refined fuel and planet b doesn't, but its pretty rare that our sector books give us any "color" about the places the characters are visiting. Sure, making that stuff up is the GM's job, but having some examples and commonalities would be great.
I don't need funny text in the rule books, but the sector books and things like the Starship Operator's Manual are excellent places to give the players info on the experience of their characters. IMHO.
Similarly, its nice to know that planet A has refined fuel and planet b doesn't, but its pretty rare that our sector books give us any "color" about the places the characters are visiting. Sure, making that stuff up is the GM's job, but having some examples and commonalities would be great.
I don't need funny text in the rule books, but the sector books and things like the Starship Operator's Manual are excellent places to give the players info on the experience of their characters. IMHO.
I like that I am seeing bits of that in the planet write-ups these days: notes on the gravity, how planet A's tainted atmosphere is different from planet B's, general notes on architecture, what can get you onto trouble... but I would like forays into local clothes, food, music (are hurdy gurdys the thing this year?), unexpected customs, or whatever else would make a Traveller think, "Hunh. Why don't we do this back on Fornice?" I'm not looking for a lot, but as Vormaerin noted, enough to make places more memorable and maybe serve as the starting points for some unexpected adventures.
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