Bow on the Back?

[Supplement Four]

Fantasy games always make it easy, with little explaination, for a toon to carry his shield or sword or bow on his back.

How is this done practically? How is it done in real life?



I can understand a particular scabbard for the back. Maybe a one-sided leather piece with a "cup" to place the sword's tip and maybe some leather laces near the handle. Someone wants his sword off his back, the unties the laces with a quick jerk, pulls the sword up over his shoulder but an inch or two to pull the sword's tip from the "cup", and then he can tilt the sword on his shoulder, swinging it up in an arc over his head, to bring it to the ready.

A normal scabbard, it would seem, would make it impossible to draw the sword from the back (unless the sword is very, very short). Human arms are just not long enough.



But, what about a shield?

How do you carry this on the back? Is a special harness needed? Or, maybe just a leather thong tied to the armor somewhere on the back?


How about a bow? How can you carry this on the back?

You should carry it unstrung, right? Maybe you have a long carrying case with a strap that fits on over the shoulder. You pull your bow from that and then string it.

In fantasy, though, characters wear their strung bows on their backs all the time.

How would this be accomplished?

 

[Demetrio]

Carrying a bow ready-strung would ruin the bow within a fairly short time as it would be under constant tension.

In fantasy art (I'm not so sure about the writing, Tolkien for instance had Legolas stringing his bow before firing) it is common, as you say. Magic, I suppose.

Shields were quite often slung on the back. I presume (though I am not certain, by means of a specific carrying strap). I shall find out.

 

[Malcadon]

Shields would likely require a special shoulder harness, or a strap that attaches from one grip to the other. I could imagine adding another strap to the shoulder strap and belt, to keep the shield from sagging. A battle axe could be carried the same way, but held by a pair of metal rings.

I imagine a back-mounded sword scabbard could be fitted loosely by a shoulder strap, with another strap attached to the belt. When the warrior pulls out the blade, the secondary strap pulls the scabbard down, and the loose shoulder strap allows the scabbard to drop in place, so the blade has more clearance. The best place for a sword is the left hip - the scabbard carried in a loose strap, that is attached to the belt at the right hip.

I have seen pictures of bows wrapped around an archer's shoulders, but that is not right. Bows are too tight to carry it that way, and the last thing you would want to do is loosen tension. People overlook the fact that bows come with a special sheath. Such a sheath is likely just a leather funnel that cover about half-way up the bow. The sheath could be apart of the quiver.

A good harness system (think John Carter of Mars, or the webgear used by modern soldiers) could allow a warrior to carry all sorts of gear on his back, and have all the weight distributed across his body.

 

[Spongly]

The easiest way to carry a shield is to loop a belt through the handle and throw it over your shoulder. Most shields also had shoulder straps to attach it in battle as well and take some of the weight off your arm.

A bow would be hard to carry on your back unless strung, and even then its uncomfortable. The best way to do it would be to wrap it in a cloth bundle and tie a strap around that and hang it like a sleeping bag. Of course, easterners might have a "gorytos", which is a sort of combination bow case and quiver.

 

[treeplanter]

it is not real life, but it give a good idea. I've done Live roleplaying in the last couple year. I carried a variety of weapon/armor including bow, sword, shield, chainmail ect.

My previous character I had a short bow, and a sword. Usually I was carrying the bow in my hand and the sword/arrow at my belt. If a combat would happen, I would try to fire 1-2 arrow then drop bow to the ground and draw the sword. But over time, I found carrying the bow to be really boring, so it was staying at the tent, and I was just carrying the sword (foam, pretty heavy). Not here I don't even talk about backpack or shield. Assuming I wanted a shield too, that would have been impossible to draw and ready it during the fight.

If you want my personnal opinion about the fantasy Bow-figthing movie-Legolas skirmish-style, I think this is bullshit. It is just impossible in real life. Archer were deadly at long-range, or from the top of a tower, and preferably in great number.

Now my last character, I figthed with Sword and shield. I had chainmail too. Sword was foam (of course) but chainmail and shield was steel. Not even talking about backpack here. I was always carrying the shield in hand, cause i intended to use it during battle. Having it in the back with a strap would require at least a good 10 seconds to have it ready for a fight. and 10 seconds is a lot. I had a strap so sometime a was carrying it just on one shoulder, so drawing it was fast, but you still have to pass your arm trough the strap wich take couple second as well.

So how we translate that into Conan RPG? well So far we did not have lot of problem with it. I had a lot in DND tough. Players always wanted to carry their two-handed greatsword because they're specialize with, and their Magic battleaxe in case they fight magical beast. And the shield cause Battleaxe is one handed. And why not add a bow for range combat? Of course you need the Full plate for the +8 AC.

Now in Conan usually we carry like one or 2 weapons, so nothing exagerate. If a PC is trying to push it with the Greatsword-shield-broadsword-bosnian bow arsenal, i'll ask him to explain me how his character carry all this and fight effectivly. After he fail lamentably i'll just answer him: "right, so you have a greatsword and a poniard, period."

I think the logic way, is that character with Bow either carry it in-hand and ready, or unstring and in the back. He can have other weapon (seathed). When he draw his melee weapon to fight in melee, he drop the bow to the ground by default. I think one could argue he can fight with a one handed weapon and hold his bow in his off-hand, i'll probably allow it for a shemite/Hyrkanian/hunting bow but probably not for Bossnian or stygian. For shield, it is assumed that the players carry his shield in-hand and ready. So for me and shield (well a big shield, of course buckler are different) and a Bow are not compatible.

 

[SnowDog]

I am really don't know how shields and swords are worn at the back but at least American Indians used to carry them in the quiver that had some kind of "tube" at one side.

 

[DooMJake]

Yes. Unstrung bows can be carried in the quiver (or an extra bow-quiver) on the hip or on the back. Shields can be slung over the shoulder (like most people wear a backpack with only a single strap. For a sheath on the back it is a little more complicated. Either your sword is a shortsword, than you CAN carry and draw it from the back, or you need a sheath that is a little 'open' at the top (about 1/3 lenght of the blade).

Hope you get what I am trying to say, english is not my first language.

 

[BlackandGold]

I've also did a little LARPing (still do) and sometimes I've even played a fighter. With my best mercenary character I had a Long Sword on one hip, a morning star on the other hip, a dagger for odd purposes on the belt and seldomly a second sword, but shorter behind the first. And my Shield on my Back. Mostly I could be ready to fight with this shield between Sighting of an enemy and the actual contact. I fastened it with a spare belt...
Sometimes I also wore a crossbow...

Back sheath for weapons is stupid and my bow did fit over my back, but it was uncomfortable and only done in emergency situations. Arrows were on the left hip, together with my short sword, if I've played as an archer.

 

[RPGnerd]

I've fought in the SCA since 1986 and running about with a 10lb helm and 70+lbs of armor, a 9lbs shield and a 3lbs "sword" ( ok a club) running about, scaling walls and operating REAL siege equipment in clamshell gauntlets...

It sucks, armor after a few hours starts to hurt. Especially when you are pushing forty. No one carries their shield on their back in combat or ever really.

When you run it will bang into you over and over again. You don't want junk hanging off your body. I have bone spurs on my shin bones from my demi grieves hitting them when I run after all these years.

Theres no way a guy could wear less than a solid breastplate with a sheild strapped to his back. Try running with a real wooden or steel shield in chainmail without it bruising your back to hell... You have over 30,000 people fighting heavy and none do it. (and I mean a real shield not a LARP one)

Keep in mind, Teardrops or Kite shields could be worn but you would not be able to run with them and there not the sort of awkward things adventurers would choose.

Real fighting in real armor kinda sucks, every year I find myself wearing less. I get why adventurers realistically would not wear much armor, fatigue. Not to mention going to the bathroom, running,climbing and everything else.

Armor is for war fighting, lines of men in a wall of shields. Adventurers don't face that, they are like the 15th-17th century duelist unarmored but carrying swords. Most survival threats in the wild are not from a mace or axe, armors a hindrance.

On archery, you can get close and personal and get kills but NO archer would ever drop his bow (They are expensive) LoL. I hate archers, and I get killed VERY often by them. Truth is i'm too old and get killed alot anyhoo.

Adventurers are like hunters, you want good clothing less than 10lbs of survival gear and a good weapon. REH never burdens his characters, but I think we all have D&D holdovers carrying unrealistic amounts of gear.

 

[Jotenbjorn]

That of course brings up a whole new topic of whether or not the armor penalties are really enough, especially considering how uber armor is in Conan.

 

[Spectator]

That of course brings up a whole new topic of whether or not the armor penalties are really enough, especially considering how uber armor is in Conan.

Excellent input!
I kinda figured a Shield on the back sucks. Heck when I run through the woods with my tiny padded camera bag bouncing on back it is disconcerting. A 10 lb shield would really suck.

Throwing the bow down seems pretty stupid as well. Its combat, some jerk may step on it or worse you may trip, fall, be prone and then meet Valhalla on the stupidity express.

Historical note: I think the most people ever wore when they walked around was either breastplate/ chain and a shield and a helmet.

The fully armored dude was on the horse, I thought.
Certainly not walking around for extended periods, combat for 30 minutes, I suppose. but not much more, I'd guess.

 

[RPGnerd]

That of course brings up a whole new topic of whether or not the armor penalties are really enough, especially considering how uber armor is in Conan.

Excellent input!
I kinda figured a Shield on the back sucks. Heck when I run through the woods with my tiny padded camera bag bouncing on back it is disconcerting. A 10 lb shield would really suck.

Throwing the bow down seems pretty stupid as well. Its combat, some jerk may step on it or worse you may trip, fall, be prone and then meet Valhalla on the stupidity express.

Historical note: I think the most people ever wore when they walked around was either breastplate/ chain and a shield and a helmet.

The fully armored dude was on the horse, I thought.
Certainly not walking around for extended periods, combat for 30 minutes, I suppose. but not much more, I'd guess.

Exactly!
Admittedly I'm a horrible archer and know most of what I know of it from others but they are very careful about them (bows).

An adventurer with a bow can't just buy a bow off the shelf and be immediately comfortable with it and can't have it fixed/repaired on the field/during adventure without a full workshop and a few days for glues to cure.

I think you hit the nail on the head addressing Horses! Adventures would keep their bows in a case, or scabbard unstrung on the right of their horse with their shield hanging on the left (for right handed people).

Yes, you could wear armor longer on horseback but it would still leave one fatigued in the shoulders and thighs as you clench the horse. Blisters could occur but alas there is hope.

REH most often had Conan wear Chainmail. Historically medieval soldiers had a "mesh" bag of leather straps that had their chainmail hanging off their horse that the armor was stored in while riding (see the statutes to the Rule of the Templars).

In under 20 seconds you can pull out the chainmail and have it on, just like pulling on a REALLY heavy sweater, taking it off is the hard part.

Balancing medieval truth with S&S fantasy is easy with REHs stories and tough with later writers who ignored the reality of weight. I think most adventurers beyond the most inexperienced would have an extra horse or two trailing behind him, one to refresh riding with so it does not die and the other as a supply horse.

This was done in the middle ages and by modern hunters who ride horses. I think you bringing up horses is really the Key to what is needed.

 

[Spongly]

Actually medieval literature and art is pretty clear that shields were carried on shoulder straps when not in use, and even that they could be swung from that position into the hand and back again with relative speed. Bear in mind that most of the people using this equipment were trained warriors, who had trained most of their lives - a medieval knight's training began at 7 years of age, so comparing them to modern re-enactors who have normal day jobs is completely pointless. The key to making it more comofrtable is just to have a strap of an adjustable length so that you can fasten it fairly close to your back so it doesn't bounce about.

Also a decent steel set of full plate should only really weight around 50-65lbs at the absolute most. Swords are usually around 2-3, while shields can weigh as much as 15lbs if they're leather fronted. Chain shirts weigh around 25-30 lbs. Granted, you wouldn't want to adventure in full plate, but it's not as encumbering (or uncomfortable if it's actually tailored to fit you) as people generally make out. The worst thing for untrained people, I've found, is the restriction to your vision, breathing and hearing, which really makes people feel claustrophobic. Overheating is also problem, especially over long periods.

 

[RPGnerd]

Actually medieval literature and art is pretty clear that shields were carried on shoulder straps when not in use, and even that they could be swung from that position into the hand and back again with relative speed. Bear in mind that most of the people using this equipment were trained warriors, who had trained most of their lives - a medieval knight's training began at 7 years of age, so comparing them to modern re-enactors who have normal day jobs is completely pointless. The key to making it more comofrtable is just to have a strap of an adjustable length so that you can fasten it fairly close to your back so it doesn't bounce about.

Also a decent steel set of full plate should only really weight around 50-65lbs at the absolute most. Swords are usually around 2-3, while shields can weigh as much as 15lbs if they're leather fronted. Chain shirts weigh around 25-30 lbs. Granted, you wouldn't want to adventure in full plate, but it's not as encumbering (or uncomfortable if it's actually tailored to fit you) as people generally make out. The worst thing for untrained people, I've found, is the restriction to your vision, breathing and hearing, which really makes people feel claustrophobic. Overheating is also problem, especially over long periods.

Yes but they were strapped to hang off the shoulder and not really the back for when riding on horseback mostly. The Victorian artist often misunderstood that and it sort off has become accepted but I can't see it working in real life.

Medieval man was about a foot shorter than most modern/hyborian warriors. a 5'3 medieval mans armor is quite lighter than the armor that my 6'3" needs. My chainmail shirt (full sleeves, and down to my knees weigh about 53lbs. My coif only weighs about 2lbs.

I agree plate mail is much less encumbering but it's also outside the world of REHs Conan.

I also agree that comparing modern reenactors to the intensive training of a Knight is not equal. Of course a Knight would know how to move within armor quite well, but I do think that reenactment lends some insight.

Modern reenactor's are scaled more to the heroic proportions of the Hyborian world. And using medieval weights for a 5'3-5'5 man does not equate to the 6 foot to 6'6 warriors of the Hyborian age.

I also agree that wearing helms is claustrophobic and very limiting to us today, but I doubt they would exist in the Hyborian age. I think REH only had open faced helms in his stories.

I'd also question if the average Hyborian would have been trained at age 7 onwards. REH based his warriors upon the early Celts who would have been much less trained in combat and more trained in life and survival skills. We need to think of Hyborians more as ancient warriors than medieval warriors.

 

[Spongly]

It's actually a bit of a myth that people in the middle ages were that much shorter than modern people. Certainly in England most male skeletons average about an inch shorter than your average modern man.

Also, REH stories do actually have full plate and sallets - Aquilonia and the other Hyborian nations are roughly the equivalent of the fifteenth century in terms of their technology - people wear doublets and hose in peace, full plate with sallets in war.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Please bear in mind that modern chain of the sort that SCA'ers use is not (as far as I know) riveted, but rather butt-jointed (as was admittedly some Far Eastern chain), thus has to use a much heavier gauge of wire to support its own weight.

Not being riveted makes a HUGE difference to the weight. Medieval European chain was typically a scratch under 20 lbs. for a short hauberk. The Wallace Collection in London has several examples, all generally around the 18-25 lbs. range. (search under "mail").

 

[Oake]

I can perhaps add a bit of info regarding bows, being an archer myself. Some bows would be easier to carry over one shoulder than others. Bows with a low brace height (distance from the string to the bow in the middle when strung) like the English longbow would be very tricky to carry like this, but shorter more curved bows like the Mongol or Hun bows would be easier. However bows shouldnt be carried strung unless you intend or expect to be using it pretty soon, as wooden bows if left strung permanently will "follow the string" and take on the curved shape even when unstrung - losing some of their power. At competitions the longbow guys do sometimes leave their bow strung up all day they usually only shoot one day per week, they arent leaving their bow strung the majority of the time.

Theres another good reason for carrying bows unstrung - rain. If a bowstring gets saturated it gets heavy and loses much of its efficiency. We use wax to keep rain out and modern synthetic materials dont get as effected as much, but in the days of the longbow a wet string could make the bow useless. Archers would keep the bow unstrung and the string somewhere dry (under their hats so the saying goes - no idea if its true).

As for actually carrying them i dont know much about that - we dont have to march anywhere with ours A longbow slung across the back would certainly make going through the undergrowth a pain in the neck!

We're about to start a campaign and this thread has been very useful for me. I think I'll add in a rule about bows, something along the lines of "is assumed to be carried unstrung and will take a round to equip and ready, unless previously prepared" If somebody is purposely going round with their bow "prepared" all the time I'll reduce its strength bonus over time or one day the bow will simply snap.

 

[Spectator]

Amazing input.
I have been invovled in the RPG thing for close to 22 years ever since I picked up DnD and warhammer in 1987.
This is the first time I have ever seen such a well researched and thought post on this subject.
I am very impressed.

 

[kintire]

I agree plate mail is much less encumbering but it's also outside the world of REHs Conan.

At her command they brought harness to replace Conan's chain-mail — gorget, sollerets, cuirass, pauldrons, jambes, cuisses and sallet. When Yasmela again drew the curtains, a Conan in burnished steel stood before his audience. Clad in the plate-armor, vizor lifted and dark face shadowed by the black plumes that nodded above his helmet, there was a grim impressiveness about him that even Thespides grudgingly noted

I also agree that wearing helms is claustrophobic and very limiting to us today, but I doubt they would exist in the Hyborian age. I think REH only had open faced helms in his stories.

A tall warrior in gleaming armor couched his lance and charged to meet the lord of Tor. They met like a thunderclap. The Nemedian's lance, striking his foe's helmet, snapped bolts and rivets and tore off the casque, revealing the features of Pallantides. But the Aquilonian's lance-head crashed through shield and breast-plate to transfix the baron's heart.

The Hyborian age holds a huge variety of periods: from Stone Age Picts to fifteenth century European Aquilonians and Nemedians. Even, arguably, further forward: Gunpowder has been removed but the Barachans look a lot likee the Carribean in the golden age of piracy, and Afghulistan bears a strong resemblance to the nineteenth century North West Frontier of India. Almost any equipment can be found somewhere!

 

[Supplement Four]

I think I'll add in a rule about bows, something along the lines of "is assumed to be carried unstrung and will take a round to equip and ready, unless previously prepared"

That was going to be my question to you: How long does it take to string a D&D short bow/long bow/composite bow?

You're saying on a few seconds--One Conan combat round.