Book Sizes

[duncan_disorderly]

I'm splitting this out from the Clanking City thread as it doesn't belong there... (but it does mean I've not trimmed the quote as I would had I been responding "in thread")

I'm not saying no books of longer length get made. I'm saying the industry has moved towards thin hardbacks as an operating model as the standard. White Wolf .

Who released Ptolus at > 600pp and who, of the 7 RPG books on their "latest releases" on their website have 3 at 160pp and 3 at 192pp (The 7th is WoW:Horde Players guide, and is the most expensive product listed, so unlikely to be a 92 pp hardbak)

and Wizards of the Coast .

who, other than adventures (which are softback) have not released a D&D (/FR/Eberron) RPG book under 160pp this year. "Tome of Magic" (apparently three new magic systems) clocks in at 228 pages while the campaign arc "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft" is 224. Similar products from mongoose seem fated to be spread across 4-5 ultra-slim (and thus overpriced) hardback pamphlets.

A third example might be AEG who obviously found "Worlds Largest Dungeon" to be sufficiently succesful to follow it with "Worlds Largest City"


Cults of Glorantha 1 is too slim. The covers are thicker than the content, so the knowledge that it was deliberately split into two parts rather than published as one "normal" (for everyone except mongoose) sized book is particularly galling.

Mongoose appear to have taken two distinct pieces of marketing information "People like Hardbacks" and "People like cheaper, hence slimmer books" and combined them, failing to appreciate that at this size the books look overpriced, because no one normally buys 96 page hardbacks!

Looking at the WW and WotC lists, the "Clanking City" book looks like it should be the equivalent of the aforementiond Ravenloft book or "WoD:Shadows of Mexico" at 192 pp, so to answer DBC's question, What I'd like to see is an absolute minimum of 160 pages...

And so it begins.

Many, many, many, many books by White Wolf and Wizards of the Coast are now no longer softback, but are slimmer hardbacks. You made all that effort to...I don't know...prove me wrong? The majority of WW and WotC books are now slimmer hardbacks - that's my whole and entire point. Now, while they're usually 128-pages and not 96,

No, they are usually (Wotc based on last year) 160 pages...
192 pages is not unusual from WW - Which suggests that we could have had a single volume Cults of Glorantha without going against the publishing model favoured by the industry leaders

but I never mentioned page count at all except to say a good writer can still fit a lot into 96 pages, which is the length of many novels. I said "slimmer harbacks is the way the industry was going", and I'm right. It's an established fact. Finding these counterexamples isn't proving anything, when WotC high-ups and White Wolf high-ups have already said it's the new business model and the majority of their catalogue reflects that.

However the evidence also appears to point to the fact that these other companies are (a) not putting hardbacks on products that are too slim to make them sensible, (b) treating the phrase "slimmer hardbacks" to mean "slimmer than the 300+page volumes that had been produced" not "slimmer than some magazines" and (c) are not rigidly producing extremely thin books where the subject matter suggests that a thicker, comprehensive book is a more sensible way to go (and another recent example of this would be the "Grand Pendragon Campaign" from Arthaus, which is part of the WW empire

Note as well that me and Phil, who I believe may be the only people involved in the modern industry right now in this thread, have already said it's the way the industry is turning. Well, it is. Companies work to different page counts, sure, but the slimmer hardback model is what is happening.

Again, We'd all, I believe, be happier if Mongoose were to produce RQ products to the "industry standard" 160-192 page slimmer hardback rather than 96-120 page ones they seem to have adopted.

Also, if you think the industry swapped to hardbacks because "People like hardbacks" you're operating under dangerously naive insight. It's because with the industry as it is, it's practically the only way to turn a profit.

It was, I think, Matt Sprange who gave this as the reason - that is "People as a whole" and "retailers particularly outside the Specialist Games Stores" prefer hardbacks, based on the numbers of hardback and paperback books sold. I don't have any access to his data, so I don't know how true it is. I do know that Moon Design produced all the Gloranthan Classic Reprints in Soft and Hard back, suggesting that sales of the first volume didn't lead them to believing that one was redundant, and that Mythic Russia was likewise produced in both formats. - Of course, neither of these fit the "Slimmer volume" module, but, OTOH I imagine there is a reasonable amount of market segment crossover (particularly with the Gloranthan Classic volumes).

You confuse me, honestly. I get that you don't like 96-page books. Sorry, guy. There's nothing I can do about it, and all I've pointed out so far is that even the largest companies in the industry have switched to slimmer hardbacks.

But, y'know, rag on the messenger if it gets you going. Glad I could help.

The inference was "Clanking City will be 96 pages, because that's what all the smart players are producing" even though the evidence suggests that were you writing it for WW or Wotc you would have at least 2/3 as much again, if not twice as much or more to produce a setting book/campaign arc

 

[philreed]

A point on hardbacks:

Once, perfect-bound books were treated as roleplaying books by distributors and retailers. When a copy sold they re-ordered, keeping the shelves stocked.

Lately, though, perfect-bound books are treated more like periodicals. Once a copy sells it isn't re-ordered.

Hardbacks are popular with publishers because distributors and retailers are more likely to re-order a hardback than they are a perfect-bound book.

 

[Trifletraxor]

Don't say anything bad about Mongoose! That's threadcrap!

SGL.

 

[philreed]

Don't say anything bad about Mongoose! That's threadcrap!

SGL.

Actually, I think this is an important subject that is worth serious discussion.

The reason I produce short products is because they're the most profitable format for me. If my sales were, on average, higher, I would be more willing to try larger products. As it is, though, I have to make the best use of my time.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

The inference was "Clanking City will be 96 pages, because that's what all the smart players are producing" even though the evidence suggests that were you writing it for WW or Wotc you would have at least 2/3 as much again, if not twice as much or more to produce a setting book/campaign arc

Simply put, I apologise for the inference. I imagine if Mongoose had the funds of Wizards or White Wolf, then Mongoose's slimmer hardbacks would match the page counts of the Big Two. That's a guess, though.

Ultimately, I was making a point about the way the industry has turned. I do a lot of work for White Wolf as well as my Mongoose stuff, and I know the slimmer hardback model is here to stay. As I said in the other thread, page counts have nothing to do with me.

Don't say anything bad about Mongoose! That's threadcrap!

SGL.

Stop that, please. It's very childish and completely incorrect.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Again, We'd all, I believe, be happier if Mongoose were to produce RQ products to the "industry standard" 160-192 page slimmer hardback rather than 96-120 page ones they seem to have adopted.

Incidentally, the shelf above my monitor has Bloodlines: the Hidden, Nomads, Coteries, City of the Damned: New Orleans, Word of Darkness: Antagonists, World of Darkness: Ghost Stories, Hunting Grounds: the Rockies and Blasphemies - all from White Wolf and representing a sizeable chunk of the nWoD line, all failing to meet the "industry standard" you quoted.

That's about half the nWoD supplement books I own, in fact. So, y'know, it's worth musing on. I get that you'd prefer those 128-140 pagers rather than the 96-ers, though.

 

[Blackyinkin]

Lately, though, perfect-bound books are treated more like periodicals. Once a copy sells it isn't re-ordered.

Hardbacks are popular with publishers because distributors and retailers are more likely to re-order a hardback than they are a perfect-bound book.

This is true one of the main problems I faced as a fan publisher was getting people to reorder our stock once it had run out, even though the public wanted it.

You can do an awful lot of things with 96 pages, if you use imagination, good editting and use art constructively. Sons of Kargzant one of our best selling products for HQ and Uz the Trolls of Glorantha were both only 64 pages long and yet achieved critical acclaim at the time of their release.

The latter of these two texts contained 20 cults, a detailed chunk of information on how to play a troll, history, occupation keywords, maps, rules for Trollball, NPCs and cameo scenarios. If we had been given 32 extra pages imagine what we could have done!

Simon

 

[Rurik]

Do we know Clanking City is set at 96 pages? It has been speculated, but do we know?

DBC: Do you know ahead of time how many pages a product you are given is going to be?

I get the impression for the most part these decisions are made ahead of time. It would be a shame if enough good material was in a manuscript to easily fit 160 pages but gets cut to 96 pages because of some marketing predetermination.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Do we know Clanking City is set at 96 pages? It has been speculated, but do we know?

DBC: Do you know ahead of time how many pages a product you are given is going to be?

I get the impression for the most part these decisions are made ahead of time. It would be a shame if enough good material was in a manuscript to easily fit 160 pages but gets cut to 96 pages because of some marketing predetermination.

Hey, Ru.

I do know ahead of time. I get a word count for each project, which corresponds to a rough number of pages, give or take art, too many sidebars, not enough sidebars, etc. etc.

 

[Rurik]

Do we know Clanking City is set at 96 pages? It has been speculated, but do we know?

DBC: Do you know ahead of time how many pages a product you are given is going to be?

I get the impression for the most part these decisions are made ahead of time. It would be a shame if enough good material was in a manuscript to easily fit 160 pages but gets cut to 96 pages because of some marketing predetermination.

Hey, Ru.

I do know ahead of time. I get a word count for each project, which corresponds to a rough number of pages, give or take art, too many sidebars, not enough sidebars, etc. etc.

So can you tell us if CC is definately 96 pages?

 

[MongooseMatt]

paperback books sold. I don't have any access to his data, so I don't know how true it is. I do know that Moon Design produced all the Gloranthan Classic Reprints in Soft and Hard back, suggesting that sales of the first volume didn't lead them to believing that one was redundant, and that Mythic Russia was likewise produced in both

I don't know anything about the set up of Moon Design, or how they go about their work. However. . .

Producing both formats is a very easy thing to do, and follows the same method as for producing limited editions.

Basically, the pages of the book are printed together, and most go on to have the cheap softcover bound around them. A few are diverted to have hardcovers. The effect of this is to give yourself a hardcover option by paying just a few hundred Dollars more than a pure softcover run. The alternative, to do 100% hardbacks, could cost thousands more, depending on your print run. It all comes down to what your cashflow can support and what you can afford to print.

Not saying this is what Moon Design are doing (they could be doing two separate print runs for all I know). But I know many other companies that have gone down this path.

The other angle, of course, is to do a hardback run first. When that sells out, you then have to make a judgement as to whether it is worth reprinting it as a hardcover - the gamble being that you will recover your costs in a short space of time, not always an easy thing to do in the RPG market. With RuneQuest, the choice was simple. For Lone Wolf, less so (especially with the other things going on with that licence).


However, not all is doom and gloom for the Big Book Fans.

We are currently looking at building our own printing facility within the next few months. If that works (and I will know within the next couple of weeks whether it is a serious goer), then the effect will be huge on the company. We will no longer be tied to the arcane price calculations regular printers use that lead you by the nose to certain page counts (such as where a 152 page book costs more than a 160 pager - a minor example, the swings can be huge).

It will also allow us to produce larger books while still hitting the same price points we do now, simply because we are cutting the printing house out of the loop. We will also be able to invest in very large (400+ pages) books without having to worry about selling 3,000+ in the first month to reclaim costs, as the majority of the investment in each book swings away from printing to content. That becomes a very interesting dynamic.

In short, we all play the hand we are dealt and, with traditional publishing methods and the current market, this is where we are at. With our own printing facility, we get to reshuffle the deck and palm a few kings. 2007 is going to be a very interesting year. . .

 

[MongooseMatt]

It would be a shame if enough good material was in a manuscript to easily fit 160 pages but gets cut to 96 pages because of some marketing predetermination.

Something else to point out here. 'Marketing' is not some troll or ogre that come clomping along, squashing good projects. 'Marketing' is me, muggins, yours truly (and my business partner, Alex). The same person who started the company, the same one who built it up from two people to just shy of a score, the same one who is hoping to get a retirement plan out of things. . .

I very much care about each and every book we do and if any limits at all are placed on a project (which is rare enough in itself), then there is usually a very, very good reason. I'm not looking for the quick buck, not going to be drawn towards the massive project that will bring cash flowing in like manna from heaven. My focus is on the long game, to still be here in another 5 years, 10 years, or longer _and_ provide gainful employment while I'm about it. A lot of gaming companies have disappeared or all but disappeared (or have otherwise withdrawn from roleplaying) over the past few years. During that time, Mongoose has expanded - we are doing something right.

I am not saying we never make mistakes. But there are normally very good reasons for why we do the things we do, most of them linked to the long term survival of the company.

 

[Rurik]

I beg to differ:

Marketing Ogre

STR: 4d6+12 (26)
CON: 3d6 (11)
DEX: 3d6 (11)
SIZ: 4d6+12 (26)
INT: 5
POW: 3d6 (11)
CHA: 2d6+9 (16)

Weapon
Maul 80% 2d6+1d12
Red Pen 90% Special
Stomp 70% 6d6+1d12

Armor: Extremely thick skin and calloused skin (12 points).

Special Rules
Combat Actions: 2
Strike Rank: +8
Movement: 2m

 

[Rurik]

Seriously though, at the particular moment the natives around here are particularly restless, and I think a lot of frustrations are coming up, and some issues are getting crosslinked. There is a feeling among people on this board that they are being condescended to or being milked for their money. I pretty much summed up my feelings on the Clanking City thread:

MRQ shows the promise to return RQ once again to a position as one of the really big systems, but it will not happen overnight, and it is up to us as customers to support anyone giving quality products or it will inevitably wither on the vine with only us to blame.

While overall I agree with your points I have an issue with your last line there.

You see the excellent products you mention in your first point were made by Chaosium and ICE respectively. Now we are looking to publishers like Phil Reed to put out the type of supplement we need. I am all in favor of voting with my wallet, but if Mongoose releases poor quality books (I'm talking content here, specifically all the errors/editing issues) it is unfair to place the blame on us, the consumers, for not buying the product.

I have no problem with their decision to produce books in the format they have chosen. WOTC sells 160 page Hardbacks for $30, Mongoose $35, but then they are a smaller publisher. I can live with that (not my preferred format, but it is not unreasonable). That all being said, MRQ books are on the high end of what gaming supplements go for. I don't think anyone can find a more expensive line of RPG books out there, while there are definitely cheaper ones. Again, no problem there. Sure I would be happy if it was one of the cheapest lines out there, but I don't mind paying for good product.

The problem is that when paying for the most expensive books on the market it is entirely reasonable to expect good production values. Instead we get books with great promise marred by bad production. They all have errors, ranging from minor annoyances (GtSA local map names not matching place descriptions in book) to downright making the game unusable as written (combat in the core, spell descriptions in all books are full of errors or just don't make sense, etc.).

There is a whole body of customers who want this game to succeed. If this were a whole new game, not RQ or Glorantha we were talking about, I would have bailed by now. I am still buying and hoping. But if it fails and withers on the vine, I think the blame will rest firmly on Mongooses shoulders.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Seriously though, at the particular moment the natives around here are particularly restless, and I think a lot of frustrations are coming up, and some issues are getting crosslinked. There is a feeling among people on this board that they are being condescended to or being milked for their money.

I did read your comments, with interest. However, everything starts at the top and trickles down. Printers raise their rates, we have to look at cashflow. Distributors get nervous about the market, we have to look at cashflow. It is not about milking people for money, but producing the best game we can in the situation we find ourselves in. We _could_ produce the 400 page monster that people have cited (or a string of 256 pagers, or whatever), but we would risk everything disappearing in 6 months if we did so. That would be no good for me, no good for fans of RuneQuest, and certainly no good for the people we employ.

Instead, we look to do everything we can to guarantee we will still be here in tens years time, supporting RuneQuest. There _is_ a line to tread. We could make a vast majority of people happy if we did 256 page full colour books for a tenner. We could bring in more revenue very quickly if we produced limited edition Gloranthan books for $200 a throw, complete with Broo skin binding (ewww). But the company would not last long if we did either. Our goal is to keep on producing games, so you can keep on playing.

 

[Rurik]

What sparked this latest round of discontent was Ian Belcher's comments on the Cults thread, and the tone and content set a lot of people off (Trifletraxor not least of all) on three issues, page count, troll snouts, and quality of editing.

I'm not even sure why he had mentioned troll snouts, as that had all quieted down for a while now. But it does work as an analogy for one of the "simmering discontents": the impression that MP doesn't care a whole lot about existing rq/glorantha fans. I don't even really think that is true, but can see why some do, and Ian's comments didn't help.

MRQ is definitely on the steep side of RPG book costs. I realize you need to do what you can, and have said a few times on this board and others I can live with the page counts and costs, if that is what you need to do to keep the books coming I will pay it.

BUT....

The one issue that has not been addressed is the editing. When paying top dollar for a book one is right in complaining if it has errors that border on making it unplayable.

If Sever Spirit was cut because it was deemed too powerful that is fine. I don't like it but I can live with it, that is a conscious decision that was made for game reasons. I can always put it back if the old Gloranthaphile in me wants it.

Most of the complaints are not about issues like that. Fang of Wachaza having it's instant kill being taken away but being left as a 5 point divine spell makes it unusable. Crush being reduced without being recosted either, Healing Gods without healing spells, etc. These are all legitimate gripes. Actually spell descriptions in all books so far have had a lot of issues. And there is the whole combat confusion from way back.

And it seems whiles the authors of the Gloranthan books are overall pretty familiar with RQ/Glorantha, the editors are not so much so.

Every book has errors, but when paying top dollar for RPG books, it leaves a sour taste when the content is as messed up as some of them are. And while you cannot control market trends or printing costs, this in one thing that surely can be improved.

EDIT: And good luck with the in house printing thing. That would be great for all involved. I hope it works out.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

I beg to differ:

Marketing Ogre

STR: 4d6+12 (26)
CON: 3d6 (11)
DEX: 3d6 (11)
SIZ: 4d6+12 (26)
INT: 5
POW: 3d6 (11)
CHA: 2d6+9 (16)

Weapon
Maul 80% 2d6+1d12
Red Pen 90% Special
Stomp 70% 6d6+1d12

Armor: Extremely thick skin and calloused skin (12 points).

Special Rules
Combat Actions: 2
Strike Rank: +8
Movement: 2m

Dude, you really do come across as a bit of a genius sometimes.

I'm not even sure why he had mentioned troll snouts, as that had all quieted down for a while now. But it does work as an analogy for one of the "simmering discontents": the impression that MP doesn't care a whole lot about existing rq/glorantha fans.

From a 'behind the scenes' viewpoint, I do know why Ian mentioned that. It was in the hopes of answering two birds with one stone, once and for all, and diminishing hostility. It...it backfired somewhat.

Also, I think I've said it but I'll mention it again. Contact with Greg Stafford is part of this gig. I ask him a lot of questions (which can actually slow the writing process a little, which is no small matter) and I sincerely doubt I'm the only MRQ writer that does.

 

[Voriof]

From a 'behind the scenes' viewpoint, I do know why Ian mentioned that. It was in the hopes of answering two birds with one stone, once and for all, and diminishing hostility. It...it backfired somewhat.

Yeah. :roll: But hey, it could have been worse. I've seen much worse on other boards.

Also, I think I've said it but I'll mention it again. Contact with Greg Stafford is part of this gig. I ask him a lot of questions (which can actually slow the writing process a little, which is no small matter) and I sincerely doubt I'm the only MRQ writer that does.

God, I should hope not! It's his world and it's a damned peculiar place. I still barely understand how a lot of it works. As a result, I stick with the more pracical aspects of the world and downplay the really esoteric stuff. There's a niche for Apple Lanes and Griffon Mountains, I think.

If it is any use to you, there are also a lot of greggly answers on the various lists. I consult them fairly often in my own work but I suspect I may spend too much time looking over my shoulder when I write.

Jeff

 

[Rurik]

I beg to differ:

Marketing Ogre

STR: 4d6+12 (26)
CON: 3d6 (11)
DEX: 3d6 (11)
SIZ: 4d6+12 (26)
INT: 5
POW: 3d6 (11)
CHA: 2d6+9 (16)

Weapon
Maul 80% 2d6+1d12
Red Pen 90% Special
Stomp 70% 6d6+1d12

Armor: Extremely thick skin and calloused skin (12 points).

Special Rules
Combat Actions: 2
Strike Rank: +8
Movement: 2m

Dude, you really do come across as a bit of a genius sometimes.

Thanks. It's those other times I worry about... :?

Actually I totally forgot the Marketing Ogre's POWx3% chance of a Chaos Feature. Doh. And to think I was giving Ian a hard time. Thanks for bringing it up again.

I'm not even sure why he had mentioned troll snouts, as that had all quieted down for a while now. But it does work as an analogy for one of the "simmering discontents": the impression that MP doesn't care a whole lot about existing rq/glorantha fans.

From a 'behind the scenes' viewpoint, I do know why Ian mentioned that. It was in the hopes of answering two birds with one stone, once and for all, and diminishing hostility. It...it backfired somewhat.

I never thought it was his intention to tick people off, but his explanations didn't sit well, or really even explain the two issues he addressed. I hate to judge someone on one post, especially because I'm pretty sure it didn't come across the way he intended.

Nope, good PR it was not.

Also, I think I've said it but I'll mention it again. Contact with Greg Stafford is part of this gig. I ask him a lot of questions (which can actually slow the writing process a little, which is no small matter) and I sincerely doubt I'm the only MRQ writer that does.

I don't think anyone has questioned the work being done by you or any of the other authors (or developers). It is what the higher ups do. Blackyinkin/Simon Brays' post on the Cults thread is heartening. But as the saying goes: "Deeds, not Words" (though in this case what we want is words - kinda messes my whole point up).

 

[Exubae]

After reading Cults and GSA it obvious that you've got some cool writers working on the Glorantha material, it seems such a waste to blow it all on poor editing (let alone self-defeating). Either through lack of space or proofing we're paying you for pretty flawed products... (Thats pretty from the looks good)

I nearly canned buying further MRQ material after reading the core book, and it has only been DBC and Voriof enthusiasm for t they're writing that has kept me interested enough to purchase further products.

It seems a shame, that so much effort gets put in to something only too 'do a friday job' at the final stages.

Perhaps up the page count from 90 to 130-140 pages might help- then I suppose its case of no matter how much space you've got your writers can always fill more.

Still don't like the Troll pig snouts but then I'm a whinging old git - but if the editing improved, I for one would probably stop moaning. (Just take the approach I did with Elder Secrets :wink: ).