Book 3:Scout what is Engineer (Ship Systems)?

[smiths121]

Hi All,

Not had too many problems with the system recently, which is nice, then this came up!

Exploration: Path finder roll 4 has Engineer (Ship Systems). Not defined in the rather long number of specialities in the Core Rulebook, could not find its definition in Book 3 Scout either.

I allowed Engineer (any) rather than add another speciality to Engineer.

Anyone do something different?

 

[barnest2]

I think it was supposed to be short hand for Engineer (any specialty to do with a ship, but not electronics or anything added in other modules)

If that makes any sense

 

[smiths121]

I think it was supposed to be short hand for Engineer (any speciality to do with a ship, but not electronics or anything added in other modules)

If that makes any sense

Barnest2, thanks for your quick response, for some reason that makes a great deal of sense. Not sure making sense is a good thing or bad thing :lol:

 

[barnest2]

A good thing, I hope...

But then of course it could just be a brand new specialty... which would be silly since it implies that it covers all of them

 

[F33D]

I allowed Engineer (any) rather than add another specialty to Engineer.

Anyone do something different?

I did the same

 

[Vyrolakos]

I think it was supposed to be short hand for Engineer (any specialty to do with a ship, but not electronics or anything added in other modules)

If that makes any sense

This is the way I made sense of it as well.

 

[alex_greene]

It's the Scout-specific Engineering speciality. It's the speciality of the solo Scout out in the field, where there are no repair shops nearby and whatever goes wrong, whether it's with the M-drive or grav plates, or the cup holders on the arm rest of the pilot's chair on the Bridge, it's up to the Scout to fix it or improvise a replacement.

 

[F33D]

It's the Scout-specific Engineering speciality. It's the speciality of the solo Scout out in the field, where there are no repair shops nearby and whatever goes wrong, whether it's with the M-drive or grav plates, or the cup holders on the arm rest of the pilot's chair on the Bridge, it's up to the Scout to fix it or improvise a replacement.

So, it covers M-drives, J-drives, PP, Mech, Electronics, Life support? At what equivalent skill level?

 

[ScottyG]

If I used Engineering-ship systems as a 'scout speciality'giving an ability to facilitate a working fix on pretty much anything and bearing in mind that to me at least, Jot was always the scout fallback bodge skill, I'd be inclined to allow it to function as the required skill at -1 level. The proviso being that the repair was a temporary (gaffer tape) type affair, which should be properly rectified at the first opportunity. Possibly accompanied by scornful remarks from professional engineers.
In the event the work was not attended to in short order the gamesmaster should be quite prepared to have the repair fail at an inopportune moment. This fits the spirit of the hapless scout for me beautifully.
It reminds me of the hammer wielding cosmonaunt in Armaggedon, "US parts, Russian parts, all the same..all made in TAIWAN"

 

[alex_greene]

Don't go around nerfing the skill, just because you can't imagine the mental versatility and flexibility of a singleship Scout (or Belter).

A well-equipped Scout would likely make sure to cram every cubic millimetre of space with spare parts, those parts he hasn't crammed with food or luxuries. The aim is to know how to cannibalise one part of the ship to repair the other, and to understand how ship systems work with the ingenuity of a Scotty.

If you want to run an adventure like the episode "Out Of Gas" from Firefly, that's your choice. But the Scout version of Engineering is a long way from the version of Engineering they teach in the Navy and Merchants careers, where there are crews large enough to have specialists who are only rated for M-Drive or J-Drive, and where there is the safe harbour of Naval bases, Class A Starports and the security of routine.

Out in the wilderness, with nothing but Type-E and Type-X starports, wilderness and people with a TL 3 at the most, you'll be lucky if you come across people who can make bronze alloy from smelted copper and zinc, let alone craft a spare component for the atmo processor out of 116 mg of pure palladium.

 

[Bardicheart]

Unfortunately it was Mongoose that went nerfing the Engineering skill without thinking through the effects. Back in CT you simply had Engineering, no specializations and it covered the operation and repair of the M and J drive... that's it. Electronics were repaired using the separate Electronics skill. If you allow a (Ship Systems) specialization, even giving it a -1 or a -2 (Naval Architect from High Guard can repair all systems at a -2 DM), it is more cost effective in skill points to take either of those skills than the specializations. That is... you can get an equivalent level 4 skill ability in 5 specializations (M Drive, J Drive, Life Support, Electronics, and Power Plants) for just 6 skill points (Skill 6 with -2 DM = effective skill level 4), or you can spend 20 points to get level 4 in each of those skills (skill 4 x 5 = 20). If Naval Architect or Ship Systems is allowed, it makes all the other specializations obsolete... why spend all those precious skill points (at 4 terms, on average, you'll have maybe 10 skill 0 skills, and another 10 skill points in skills with most of these skills at skill 1 or 2; meaning you couldn't get those 5 specializations at skill 4 in the first place). All those specializations might be okay if Traveller were primarily about Naval characters on heavy cruisers and dreadnaughts playing a member of a crew of hundreds or thousands... but it isn't. Most Traveller games focus on 4-6 people most often on a small tramp freighter and the limits of the skill systems reflect that.

The best solution I've come up with is to simply do away with the Engineering specializations completely and go back to the single skill as it was in CT. Use Phy Sci (Electronics) for any electronics repairs.

 

[F33D]

More errata for MGT...

 

[CosmicGamer]

the Scout version of Engineering is a long way from...

The scouts do have the JoT skill while I believe the Navy and Merchants don't. This perhaps reflects a Scouts ingenuity and necessity to be self reliant. Using MgTs timing rules, a scout with JoT should be able to take their time and come up with a fix for a wide variety of problems.

In most cases, if the character has any relevant skill, I wouldn't even require a roll to perform a repair if the character has any relevant skill, the parts and the time. I might use a roll to see how long the repairs take, how long they will last, and perhaps how many parts were used (for a low roll perhaps some extra parts were consumed in failed attempts) or if somehow the character made things worse or possibly unrepairable (snake eyes).

During combat or other dire circumstances, even a resourceful character can't be in several places at once. They'd be busy piloting, operating comms, sensors, weapons and defenses. Wouldn't expect a sole ship operator, even a skilled engineer with the proper specialty, to do repairs in such a situation. So, for a scout, or sole ship operator, I don't see the engineering specialties being as much of a problem as...

...on smaller ships with a single dedicated engineer, they would have to be more skilled (more versatile with skill in several specialties) to handle engineering emergencies. During combat and other dire circumstances their job is to get the power, maneuver, and jump drives going if there is damage or failure. (To me, life support issues are not as dire. Crew and passengers can survive in vacc suits and zero-G while time is taken after the emergency to perform repairs.)

ADDITIONAL EDIT: Yet I see how the Engineering specialties make sense on larger ships with multiple engineers.

 

[locarno24]

In most cases, I wouldn't even require a roll to perform a repair if the character has any relevant skill, the parts and the time.

Agreed. In fact the core rules discourage you from doing so. At best, I might make a secret role and note down the result if I intended to throw a system malfunction as an event of interest in a future game.

 

[CosmicGamer]

In most cases, I wouldn't even require a roll to perform a repair if the character has any relevant skill, the parts and the time.

Agreed. In fact the core rules discourage you from doing so. At best, I might make a secret role and note down the result if I intended to throw a system malfunction as an event of interest in a future game.

I edited my post to add:

I might use a roll to see how long the repairs take, how long they will last, and perhaps how many parts were used (for a low roll perhaps some extra parts were consumed in failed attempts) or if somehow the character made things worse or possibly unrepairable (snake eyes).

 

[alex_greene]

J-o-T, in this case, applies to skills such as, say, Leadership, Carouse, Diplomat or a Science in which he is not rated.

Engineering (Ship Systems) specifically refers to the kinds of engineering a Scout is required to perform on his ship's systems out in the field, as I have said, far from any kind of repair shop or anything resembling the TL of the ship.

Even the mechanic is different. Levels of J-o-T just reduce the untrained penalty for skills the character does not have, until J-o-T-3 basically grants a character an untrained penalty of +0; Engineering (Ship Systems)-2 grants a +2 to the DM to the appropriate task check, whether it's routine maintenance or jury-rigging a failed component, and as with any skill, you can buy it at level-0 (competent), level-1 (trained) and so on. It is an actual skill, not a "knack" like J-o-T.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Engineering (Ship Systems)

Sorry, I had lost track of the original posts' skill reference from the scout book and was referring to the core rulebook Scout career.

So scouts can get all encompassing supper engineers that can gain skill across all ship systems with a single skill roll while all other careers (including other scouts who are not in the specialty that grants the Engineering (Ship Systems) skill) are more limited in the abilities their engineers are able to gain with the same amount of time and experience?

Small merchant ships and belters wish their engineers were as capable as these special scouts. Pirates would seek to pressgang them into service. The Navy, Merchants and other operators of large ships would love to know the secret of how the scouts are trained so that they wouldn't need so many engineering specialist.

While the skill may make sense the way you describe it for scouts, what limits do you impose to help balance things?

 

[alex_greene]

While the skill may make sense the way you describe it for scouts, what limits do you impose to help balance things?

You know how the rules for Survival skill always say "You cannot find Survival skill to locate breathable air in a vacuum?" Well, the same limitation applies when it's a scout ship and that cheap, crappy compression coil nothing part just cannot be replaced or cannibalised, no matter what you use.

The balancing factor for the other services is that, in the Merchants, Navy and other military forces' vessels where one can specialise, there are crews to do the work on each ship's component. J-crews, P-crews, maintenance, gunnery repair, electronics crews, avionics guys and the guy who goes down into the bowels of the ship to turn off the computers and turn them on again because only he knows where the main power switch is to reboot the computers - it's in his job description to know.

And since your characters will be stuck in one department and rise through the ranks within that department, that would be where your Engineering speciality would be - J-Drive, P-plant and so on.

If your character has been on a Scout ship, during his earlier career he'd have served on a ship with a crew of scouts, but later been promoted to fly solo missions on a singleship, with some room for passengers or crew for specific missions but in general, otherwise, on one's own.

That would limit the usefulness of an Engineering skill with just one speciality - J-Drive, M-Drive and so on - because if a scout doesn't have J-Drive and his Jump engine powers down unexpectedly before a Jump, he'll be at a -3 to figure out why: not so good with a Z-fleet bearing down on him in a hurry. And if he does have enough specialities to handle every system, that means weeks of training to get them all up to speed. Say, your character has Engineering (J)-2, (M)-1 and (Life Support)-3. His M skill's weakest. Hard to use the Jump drive when your ship's wallowing in near space, unable to go anywhere because you can't even point the ship along the right vector, let alone get it clear of the 100-diameter radius.

And remember, this is singleship training. Nobody else to back you up.

Hence, the specialised need for the Scout service to train their crews - particularly singleship crews - in Ship's Systems, so they'll have as much experience in restarting the fusion reactor with a lithium-boron plug in a hot deuterium-enriched reaction chamber as in dumping out the contents of the water recycling sump and scrubbing it clean of Zoliani algae so they can start having water showers again and take down that emergency still they'd been using to reprocess their wastes for drinking water.

 

[CosmicGamer]

The balancing factor for the other services is that, in the Merchants, Navy and other military forces' vessels where one can specialize, there are crews to do the work on each ship's component.

So the balance for a single scout character with Engineering (Ship Systems) is multiple specialists?

Chargen doesn't allow gaining skills faster and slower for different skills. The specialists who gains 2 skill levels might get Engineering (power) 2 and the other engineering skills at level 0 while another character gains two levels in Engineering (Ship Systems) which would be similar to gaining all the following skills: Engineering(Power) 2, Engineering(Maneuver) 2, Engineering(Jump) 2, and Engineering(Life Support) 2.

If an all encompassing skill of Engineering (Ship Systems) is allowed, I believe it needs to be balanced better and I'm hoping you have something better to offer than Scouts are better because they need to be.

For example, something like they can work on systems of a certain size at their skill level but they have never worked on the systems in much larger ships or maybe non scout ships and get a penalty.

Those larger Navy ships have a larger crew so they can have a pilot, astrogator, comm officer, sensor operator... but it make sense that a solo scout would need a variety of bridge skills so perhaps a new skill called "Spacer" should be created and this skill allows piloting, astrogation, comms, sensors... all with just one skill roll. That would be nice.

 

[alex_greene]

If an all encompassing skill of Engineering (Ship Systems) is allowed, I believe it needs to be balanced better and I'm hoping you have something better to offer than Scouts are better because they need to be.

No, I'm saying that Scouts are better because they are better. They're not trained to think as part of a team, or to be a tiny cog in a crew of hundreds working on a capital ship's big Jump engine with no knowledge of how the M-drive works because that's neither in his department nor his training.

Ship's Systems represents a completely different ethos to Engineering; one which would have a conventional Navy type ripping his PADD in half and grinding at the broken end with his teeth in apoplectic rage. No requisition forms, no chain of command, no orders from on high, no subordinates to boss around. The floor gets wet, you swab it yourself; that component fails, you replace it or jury-rig something to keep the system working; if your J-drive fails, you strip what you need from the M-drive and make do with a maximum of 0.25 thrust and thrusters till you get her home and complete your mission. The scout only has himself to rely upon, but he is trained to be one smart cookie and be a miracle worker and get the job done, even under circumstances which would leave more experienced yet conventionally-trained engineers scratching their heads.

Scouts' training and ethos are predicated and centered around the skills, which of necessity have to be exceptionally broad, of the singleship Scout - whom they must train to be among the most capable individuals across as broad a range of skills as possible. Hence J-o-T to fill in the blanks with missing skills, and hence the speciality of Ship Systems, with its emphasis on how the construction of the various ship systems interconnect and, more importantly, how they can be cannibalised and jury-rigged when there is no clear chain of command and paper trail of parts requisitions from Spare Part Storage on the Quartermaster Deck of the Starship.

Remember - the other trades emphasise being a member of a team, knowing only the parts of the systems you are assigned to know about, and being told what to do. Scout training is, in its way, so very different - the exercise of individual talents and learning skills as rapidly as it is possible to learn (requiring a metric ton of studying of skills during Jump and downtime)

Those larger Navy ships have a larger crew so they can have a pilot, astrogator, comm officer, sensor operator... but it make sense that a solo scout would need a variety of bridge skills so perhaps a new skill called "Spacer" should be created and this skill allows piloting, astrogation, comms, sensors... all with just one skill roll. That would be nice.

Not necessary. J-o-T covers the gaps in the skills, and in a way, represents the depth of broad training in general knowledge that the scout with J-o-T gains to round off his character and prepare him for those times when he will only have his INT and EDU DM to count on.

And a Scout who is assigned a term out in space in a scout ship, yet never learns Pilot, Computer, Astrogation, Sensors, Engineering or Comms had probably been on a ship in some supernumerary capacity the whole term, mooching around and schlepping about on board other Scouts' vessels and generally mucking about without really learning anything worthwhile.

Like the characters in Dark Star.