René said:The default ability for Bluff is Charisma, but doesn't it make more sense to use Dexterity if bluffing in combat?
Mijoro said:I think you're getting "Bluff" confused with "Feint" (although both require a Bluff check...)
From the SRD:
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target.
Eisho said:I rationalise the actual physical action of feinting as most would think of it (a leading strike to draw a defensive movement thus exposing another area to the second, real strike) as being reflected in the Base Attack Bonus. A high BAB indicates a better ability, at a physical level and among other things, to force the opponent into exposing himself.
Evil_Trevor said:Also we could argue that it could be an WIS modifier since to use a fient successfully you need to correctly judge in advance what your oppenant will do and how to use this to your advantage
Evil_Trevor said:Also we could argue that it could be an WIS modifier since to use a fient successfully you need to correctly judge in advance what your oppenant will do and how to use this to your advantage (e.g. if I fient toward his face he will try to parry, exposing his torso...) this is using Wisdom in the same way it is used for 'Spot' as a mental agility/awareness stat.
This is a very good point. I was away from the boards on the holidays and had trouble getting to Mongoose after, but what you write is basically true. You look at your opponent's eyes, that's how you read what he's going to do or is doing, your peripheral vision takes in his (other) hand, the sword hand, his movement, etc. You learn to develop your peripheral vision when fencing without a mask, and this is the most important point we make when teaching actors how to stage fence, which I did up until January for 8 years in NYC.geordiekimbo said:Not that i'm a sword fighter or a fencer, but i'm sure i've heard that when you fence you keep your eyes on the fighter, not the sword. Similarly when you box you're told to look into the eyes of your opponent, not his fists. That way you can possibly read what your opponent is about to do. In D20 they use Charisma to reflect this, allowing you to predict your targets next move by reading his body language or the tell tale glances at the area he is going to attempt to hit. that way feinting in combat only works against intelligent creatures, as a dumb animal isn't going to care about looking into your eyes to try and predict what you're about to do.
This is true for modern fencing, like I wrote above, you develop your peripheral vision to see the whole opponent, not to stare at his sword.Furie said:I *think* I've said this before elsewhere in the forum, but when fencing you don't want to look at the fencer's eyes either (can be tricky to do with the wire mesh face guards anyway). What you want to do is try to take in the whole fencer because even though the weapon might say one thing, the body might say something different, or vice versa.
Another good point, I was going to remark about telegraphing when I saw your post, so added it to geordiekimbo's quote, as I think it's important. You keep your eyes on your opponent always, until you're well out of fencing distance (the distance at which you could potentially engage the other person, in real world it's not a 5' square but I'd say anything within 15' is a potential threat range and you shouldn't turn your back on opponent unless doing it to invite an attack). If the opponent's face isn't completely obstructed, you'd look at the face/eyes, and use peripheral vision to take in the whole person. Charisma is indeed the best indicator, as it dictates HOW that person's DEX is applied, especially in regard to feints, draws, or disengages. (a double in 6 is a dexterous move to undertake, but your force of personality dictates it's successful use to deceive an opponent and create an opening in a closed guard).Furie said:One of the keys to a successful feint is selling the feint to the opponent. It is also possible to telegraph an attack, not unlike a "tell" when playing cards. Hence, I don't see Cha as being an incredibly unlikely stat to attach to a feint.