Bland covers. Why?

[rust]

EDG, I see your point, although I do not agree with you.

I think Mongoose had to look for the best way to sell as many copies
of their new Traveller as possible, and I am convinced that they made
the right decisions. Just look at the poll here, at the opinions in this
thread and at the obvious commercial success of MGT.

Besides, the decisions have been made, and it is too late now to chan-
ge anything. Changing horses in midstream is rarely a good idea.
So, you will probably have to wait for some special edition(s) to see
(hopefully good) cover art on a new Traveller rulebook.

 

[kafka]

In the minority here by the look of it...I like colour covers. One of the things that made MegaTraveller jump off the store shelf for me was the cover. I always eagerly awaited each issue of the JTAS and Challenge because in part of the art. I often wished that I could get prints of the art that Traveller has had over the years. But, basic black for the rules is cool too.

 

[EDG]

And yet I bet you still use the same old boring laws of thermodynamics right? Why not just randomly change them a bit, that ought to spice things up a bit.

If you're going to make a comparison, at least try to make a valid one... :roll:. Traveller isn't the laws of physics, it's a game.

I just dont get why this is such a huge thing for you. And before you claim it isnt huge, if it wasnt yyou would not waste so much bandwidth on it.

Because I just see a huge squandered opportunity here - it's a new edition, why not try to establish a new identity for the line as well? When I see a book with the black cover style I think "Traveller, that old game where you can die in character generation (when I first mentioned the game to my friends here a few years ago that's exactly what they said, with considerably more disdain), and that has that crusty old OTU setting that doesn't make a lot of sense". If Mongoose wants this to break out of that and be the corebook for a variety of systems then why not show that on the cover? GURPS 4e shows the possibilities of that pretty well.

But instead, we're lumbered with dull, black covers that are basically designed to appeal to older gamers. Who I'm sure are buying them in their droves, but like I said the presentation isn't exactly forward-thinking, imaginative or adventurous. And the logic that it's eye-catching because it's dull and bland is somewhat perverse to me. There's more that can be done with a "minimalist design" than just this.

And let's take 760 Patrons. Is that actually an OTU book or a generic Traveller book? And WTF is that cover? Why not put a scene where people are you know, making shady deals, like the ones that many of the patrons would want them to do? They could have had something where an exchange is being made - a big crate of stuff is being handed over, some guys in the other party are looking in a suitcase full of credits, while bodyguards stand at watch looking out for interruptions. It'd at least be more evocative of the book's contents than just a simple text statement of "760 Patrons" and a blue line. And what's more, it could have shown off some new art talent too. Whoever does the shaded art drawings in the corebook is pretty good, and there's a few 3D artists that are really good (Scarecrow springs to mind).

That's the sort of thing I'd like to see. Traveller's wallowed for far too long in nostalgia for the "good old days", I think. (I think this is why I liked TNE so much, because even in the 90s this nostalgia bent was starting to get unbearable - but at least TNE shook everything up and pushed the game in a new direction).

 

[AKAramis]

I'm fed up with this sort of backward-looking attitude myself - how everything's got to be like it was originally.

Ever stop to consider who is the backwards looking one?

MGT is 90% new mechanics.
It is a revised look, reminiscent, but not the same.
With the rise in e-book readers, digest size will be preferable for display on smaller screens. (I will wait for the digest sized ebook, myself, for that very reason.)

Now, to be honest, for physical books, my preference is STILL for digest sized, 98-120pp booklets. Preferably with charts and tables in a separate book from the rules text, making reference and read easier.

Many games now are in trade size (6x9.5), and I'm good with that, too. (Burning Wheel, Albedo, all the WWG MET stuff, and much more WWG stuff, Pocket Conan, Pocket OGL, Land of Og)... Some is even smaller. T&T7 sold well enough (the entire print run is sold out at FDP and FBI, with a scant few left in distribution), at 4x6.

Smaller physical books do sell. It's a different demographic, perhaps, but they do sell. Well enough that Mongoose released several "duplicate" rulebooks in trade paperback size.

 

[captainjack23]

In the minority here by the look of it...I like colour covers. One of the things that made MegaTraveller jump off the store shelf for me was the cover. I always eagerly awaited each issue of the JTAS and Challenge because in part of the art. I often wished that I could get prints of the art that Traveller has had over the years. But, basic black for the rules is cool too.

It's always surprising when things polarize ...it is possible to have positive opinions of color covers and minimalist covers.

Frankly, I like good color graphic covers -Spinward Marches is a great example...but for all the great ones, there are a lot of dogs; and I do think a bad cover can kill sales far more than a great one can enhance them. My personal opinion is that the field is moving into baroque excess these days - both in terms of design and presentation, and in terms of inflating the cost of the product.

Still, color graphics are an old trope in gaming -not cutting edge at all, in fact. The first "mass market" RPG - AD&D - sported serious color graphic covers & binding (some of them were REALLY wretched initially, I do admit) . It a "safe and familiar strategy" - every edition of traveller since CT, and even some of those, had color covers, and mostly, they did okay....I guess. But they really didn't stand out from the crowd.


Say what you will, but the minimalist (if you like 'em) bland (if you don't)
covers of traveller are like nothing on the game shelves right now ; so which is really a new approach ?

That they harken back to classic traveller, is I admit somthing that gives some people who dislike CT hives; but I suspect a "dark Heresy" sixteen color half overlay on every page extravaganza would do the same for others. It's all very well to opine that it should be more 21st century or more creative, but what ? Graphics vs minimalism is a constant tension in publishing, for 400 or so years...and its still unresolved, and unreplaced.

They were creative, its distinct, it's a hit. .

Now, shall we move on to critique the white album ?


:wink:

 

[zozotroll]

Yes indeed it is a game. And still bitterly fought over for all that.

 

[Xoph]

:roll: :arrow: I think it is clear this way:

If Mongoose wanted to make a new Sci-Fi RPG they would have made "Space Mongoose" not Travelller, which could had pilfered Traveller stuff like RPGs everyone does. Rather then making this new "Space Mongoose" they made Traveller, in the CT era with Marc Miller. Obviously this reimagining came with certain needs to stay true to many things Traveller and not to other things. Which things are which is up to Mongoose and Marc, it is their game and there OTU. It is up to you which of these things you make your game and YTU.

 

[iainjcoleman]

Because I just see a huge squandered opportunity here - it's a new edition, why not try to establish a new identity for the line as well?

Because establishing a successful brand identity is really, really hard. Even with the best designers in the world, it's still mostly a matter of chance. Something happens to resonate, to embody in some abstract yet accessible way some essence of the product, such that people notice it, remember it, and identify that design with a particular cluster of ideas that are at the core of the identity you are trying to establish.

In 1977, Traveller managed this. With the best will in the world, it is unlikely that Mongoose could come up with a design as iconic as the original LBBs. So they didn't. They did the smart thing. They used a proven success.

It's possible, of course, that they could have done something even better than the LBB design. But it is far, far more likely that they would have ended up with a design no more memorable and resonant than Megatraveller, or TNE, or T4.

 

[EDG]

MGT is 90% new mechanics.
It is a revised look, reminiscent, but not the same.

Neither of which I've denied. It's just let down by the covers, is all.

For crying out loud, even the T5 cover is different enough from CT to be distinctive.

With the rise in e-book readers, digest size will be preferable for display on smaller screens. (I will wait for the digest sized ebook, myself, for that very reason.)

There's a rise in e-book readers? Not from where I'm looking there ain't - everyone round here still reads physical books if they're away from the computer.

Many games now are in trade size (6x9.5), and I'm good with that, too. (Burning Wheel, Albedo, all the WWG MET stuff, and much more WWG stuff, Pocket Conan, Pocket OGL, Land of Og)... Some is even smaller. T&T7 sold well enough (the entire print run is sold out at FDP and FBI, with a scant few left in distribution), at 4x6.

Again, not round here they ain't. My FLGS is full of the Letter-sized books, and has very few that aren't that size. In fact, I trhink the only one they have that's 'pocket-sized' is the new Palladium Robotech book.

Smaller physical books do sell. It's a different demographic, perhaps, but they do sell. Well enough that Mongoose released several "duplicate" rulebooks in trade paperback size.

I'm not saying they don't sell. The point of the smaller books is to make them cheaper and more portable (I think the pocket books have less or no interior art?).

Personally I find those smaller books harder to use. And they won't stay open on a page either.

 

[cbrunish]

I have to agree with the black color for the Traveller rules. From a marketing stand point this would be the best idea. And when it comes down to it, its about sales. The LBB sold well in their day. And they still seem to sell now (even out of print). Its what Traveller "purists" want.

And EDGE do have a negative opinion about everything? And to top it off you try to sound so condesending towards everyone else. It's as if everyone else is an idiot. You are a true FANatic.

 

[EDG]

And EDGE do have a negative opinion about everything? And to top it off you try to sound so condesending towards everyone else. It's as if everyone else is an idiot. You are a true FANatic.

If you disagree with my opinion and want to argue about that then that's fair enough. But don't start making personal attacks or comments about me just because you don't like what I say.

I can see the arguments about how the minimalist covers stand out. And I agree that they do stand out. But I've pointed out that there are ways to be minimalist and still doff the cap to the old days while being different. The Avenger PDFs had the Traveller look while also having artwork. Heck, even T5 has artwork on its (hypothetical) cover. Those are still recognisable as Traveller but they're not straight out copies of the original covers (and the only real difference between the design of the Mongoose covers and the CT ones is that there's a 'hook' at one end of the coloured line. Whoopee).

As it is I've started another thread for people to suggest alternate covers (with actual cover art) on them for the books. Traveller fans are always talking about how 'creative' they are, so there's a chance to demonstrate it.

 

[GamerDude]

And EDGE do have a negative opinion about everything? And to top it off you try to sound so condescending towards everyone else. It's as if everyone else is an idiot. You are a true FANatic.

If you disagree with my opinion and want to argue about that then that's fair enough. But don't start making personal attacks or comments about me just because you don't like what I say.

Please please please... just because someone who disagrees with you points out a flaw (perceived or otherwise) in your character/behavior here, doesn't make it a personal attack.

Please look back over your time here on these forums (yes, and each time you've come back after saying you can stand the people here and weren't ever coming back). cbrunish is only the latest in a lonng line of people who have made that same basic comment on how your posts are perceived.

Personally, even as one of your detractors (for your approach to those who disagree with you), I like reading some of your posts. You know your planetary science and are great at high level math etc. You bring up great points to many a discussion.

Now, EVERYONE take a step back and breath.

Good.

Now, let's be honest here... There is any cover of a gaming book that appeals to everyone. As much as I love MGT:SM, I HATE the cover. I've stated it and moved on because the ship has sailed on that subject. I, like many people, also really like the covers on the core MGT books and they are selling very well... some people, including you, don't like them or think they should have more color or something. Point taken.

But, the ship has sailed. The topic has been debated, the poll has been running and the jury is in...

How about we all just move along... there's nothing more to see here.

hopefully 'nuff said.

 

[Jeff Hopper]

:roll:. Traveller isn't the laws of physics, it's a game.

I am so totally going to remind you of this statement the next time you bring up how unrealistic Traveller star system generation is.

 

[EDG]

I am so totally going to remind you of this statement the next time you bring up how unrealistic Traveller star system generation is.

Can you really not see the difference between someone saying "gee, maybe you could perhaps for once not harken back to the old days with the new edition book covers" and "gee, maybe you should stop using the lynchpin of physics because it's, y'know, old"?

And it's not just MGT that's done this - there were a lot of T20 PDF adventures and supplements that did the same thing (and also had the colour band on the top and bottom of the page).

Please please please... just because someone who disagrees with you points out a flaw (perceived or otherwise) in your character/behavior here, doesn't make it a personal attack.

As far as I'm concerned, it's personal the moment anyone says anything about the person writing the post and not what he's actually writing. That sort of commentary ain't necessary, period.

 

[Flynn]

As an aside, gentlemen, it is not necessarily cheaper to print in the smaller size. Looking at Lulu.com, for example, it's the same cost per book, no matter what the size. In fact, if your smaller book size results in more pages, then the smaller book size actually costs more to print, which results in either a higher retail price or less profit for the publisher.

Just a bit of info for your consideration,
Flynn

 

[Infojunky]

As an aside, gentlemen, it is not necessarily cheaper to print in the smaller size. Looking at Lulu.com, for example, it's the same cost per book, no matter what the size. In fact, if your smaller book size results in more pages, then the smaller book size actually costs more to print, which results in either a higher retail price or less profit for the publisher.

Just a bit of info for your consideration,

Yes and no. it really depends on your production values.
A digest sized book, staple bound has upper size limits.

I have been advocating going back to a digest sized book sized book looking at the approx. 42-52 page books of the classic period. This limits the number of topics a individual book can cover.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Me? The only thing I'd prefer is to make a pocket version of the core-rules at least - making them lbbs again.

...which again is harkening back to "the good old days" when Traveller was a bunch of inconvenient small books.

Since when is a pocket sized book "inconvenient"?

I want a pocket sized book because I am literally travelling myself this year, and want something small enough that I can take with me in my pocket (with a handful of dice, scrapbook and a pencil).

There are plenty of 'modern games' that make use of a pocket-sized format. What is so 'nostalgic' about wanting that for Traveller too?

 

[EDG]

Since when is a pocket sized book "inconvenient"?

I was referring more to the fact that you needed more than one LBB to actually have a playable game (which is exactly why I'm dead against having lots of little books). It's also indirectly harkening again to the old days to release Traveller in a pocketbook format, but there's a precedent given that Mongoose have already done it for Conan.

And while small staple-bound books can stay open pretty easily, the glue-bound small ones don't (especially when they have a lot of pages) and you generally have to break the spines to get them to stay open.

 

[AKAramis]

As an aside, gentlemen, it is not necessarily cheaper to print in the smaller size. Looking at Lulu.com, for example, it's the same cost per book, no matter what the size. In fact, if your smaller book size results in more pages, then the smaller book size actually costs more to print, which results in either a higher retail price or less profit for the publisher.

Just a bit of info for your consideration,
Flynn

Keep in mind also: real printing costs (as opposed to POD) vary by how many pages per sheet they can fit, and how many cuts it takes.

5x8 uncut sheets saddled-bound are priced per sheet, not per page, by several printers I've dealt with. 8x11 saddle the same way (but charged per 11x17 sheet), and similar for 8.5x7 saddle.

It's actually cheaper, for books short enough to handle it, to do 5x8 saddle at some of my local printers, since it results in cheaper costs, than the same number of sheets being (im)perfect-bound; other printers in town, the oposite is true... depends on if they have the saddle staple bindery automated!

But, for home binding, I much prefer 5x8, as I can print it out in booklet using adobe, and saddle bind it myself, using either my long-arm stapler or my sewing machine. (Extra long straight stitch, #18 leather needle)

 

[GamerDude]

Since when is a pocket sized book "inconvenient"?

I was referring more to the fact that you needed more than one LBB to actually have a playable game (which is exactly why I'm dead against having lots of little books). It's also indirectly harkening again to the old days to release Traveller in a pocketbook format, but there's a precedent given that Mongoose have already done it for Conan.

And before Conan, for Starship Troopers.

And while small staple-bound books can stay open pretty easily, the glue-bound small ones don't (especially when they have a lot of pages) and you generally have to break the spines to get them to stay open.

That's where, depending on the margins, you take the book to someplace like (in the U.S. at least) Kinkos. They split the book down the glue, spiral bind it, and WAH-LA! a lovely book that lays open no matter what the size.