Big announcement today?

[Morgan d'Barganfore]

I think the "has to open flat" is a key feature - other (older) game system books that were otherwise great were completely spoilt when the spine started to fracture.
I'd accept pdf if I had to, but the hard bound book (good spine) is something that I'd want and pay for.

Out of interest, anyone know approximately how how it costs to convert a pdf to a hard bound format (for example to the RQII core book standard, assuming same content in pdf)?

 

[PhilHibbs]

I think the "has to open flat" is a key feature - other (older) game system books that were otherwise great were completely spoilt when the spine started to fracture.
I'd accept pdf if I had to, but the hard bound book (good spine) is something that I'd want and pay for.

I don't mind my rulebooks falling apart.

By "lay flat", I mean "flat enough" - the MRQ2 core rulebook is ok. The worst example that I can think of is the first edition Hero Wars rulebooks, which were paperback book format. Total nightmare.

 

[andyl]

But the point is, if Leather Bound Hardbacks are the best and cheapest (or joint cheapest) way of presenting the rules, why are the next edition going to be in £10 "digest sized" books? If the first edition of MRQ had been written as well as MRQ2 and priced in this bracket I suspect that much of the goodwill in the RQ name would not have been squandered and sales would have been better....

There may be factors at work such as scale. They also needed to recoup the development costs on the first print run. With those factors considered, it may be that going hardback with leather covers as against softcover made an insignificant difference to the final cover price. Now that development costs are largely done with, doing a new, smaller print run in a different binding has quite different economics. Maybe it's also a different printing company with a different price list.

I'm pretty sure that digest style books can be printed for less than a full sized hardcover.

I'm pretty sure that hardcover does have an extra price (although not as much as you would expect) to softcover.

I think that there is more choice when it comes to companies able to turn out a few thousand digest format books. So price competition in that market may be more fierce.

What the PP failed to recognise there is no "best way" of presenting the rules. The cheapest is not necessarily the best. Neither is the most expensive.

Different people have different likes and dislikes when it comes to presentation for a start.

But in reality it is down to where the publisher wants to position the game in the market. Runequest and Glorantha has always been considered a premium brand. RQ3 was near the top end of the price list spectrum for RPGs when it was released. The Moon Design books are pricey too (although fans of them will say that they are good value).

 

[Deleriad]

But in reality it is down to where the publisher wants to position the game in the market. Runequest and Glorantha has always been considered a premium brand. RQ3 was near the top end of the price list spectrum for RPGs when it was released.

Actually RQ2 in the UK (along with the other GW publications of Chaoisum material) was as cheap as it comes. I got the original UK box set for £8 if I remember rightly. One of the things that helped kill RQ3 in the UK was the £40 price of the new box set.

I'm not in the business but if SW is going to a deluxe hardcover model for the SW corebook it could be that PEG have decided they weren't doing well enough with the digest model. That would be a shame. I personally think that the digest model is a good one but that's only from my viewing position.

 

[andyl]

But in reality it is down to where the publisher wants to position the game in the market. Runequest and Glorantha has always been considered a premium brand. RQ3 was near the top end of the price list spectrum for RPGs when it was released.

Actually RQ2 in the UK (along with the other GW publications of Chaoisum material) was as cheap as it comes. I got the original UK box set for £8 if I remember rightly. One of the things that helped kill RQ3 in the UK was the £40 price of the new box set.

That is more reasonable. I couldn't remember the prices from those days so I looked it up in an old White Dwarf. £7.95 for Runequest. That compares to £5.75 for Traveller, £7.25 for D&D Basic, £3.50 for Tunnels & Trolls. £6.95 for Chivalry & Sorcery. Villians & Vigilantes was £4.95. AD&D was £9.90 for a DMG and £7.90 for a PHB (the MM was another £7.90) - notably a lot more expensive than anything else.

So although RQ2 was competitive in the market it wasn't quite "as cheap as it comes".

For those youngsters reading who don't know what things cost in them days (1980 - for RQ2). A paperback fiction book was about £1.25. A hardback fiction book was about £6.95.

 

[Morgan d'Barganfore]

Those numbers feel about right, Andyl

 

[soltakss]

For those youngsters reading who don't know what things cost in them days (1980 - for RQ2). A paperback fiction book was about £1.25. A hardback fiction book was about £6.95.

So, RQ sold for roughly 5 times the cost of a paperback.

Since paperbacks go for about, what, 6.00 nowadays, that means that an equivalent RQ would cost about 30 pounds. That seems expensive to me, but I'm used to gaming books being betwen 10-15 pounds, regardless of the actual costs now.

 

[Deleriad]

For those youngsters reading who don't know what things cost in them days (1980 - for RQ2). A paperback fiction book was about £1.25. A hardback fiction book was about £6.95.

So, RQ sold for roughly 5 times the cost of a peprback.

Since paperbacks go for about, what, 6.00 nowadays, that means that an equivalent RQ would cost about 30 pounds. That seems expensive to me, but I'm used to gaming books being betwen 10-15 pounds, regardless of the actual costs now.

Or alternately a bit more than a hardback which would be about £15 these days. You can really see the differential rates of inflation.

I didn't have a game shop in my home town and got RQ2 in late 1982 if I remember rightly. I seem to remember seeing the AD&D books all for around £8.99 and thinking crikey. I think I remember seeing the individual Traveller books for about £5 and saw Basic D&D in the local Co-op for either £7.99 or £8.99 or around that amount. I remember getting a look into it and seeing that it contained very little compared to RQ. (RQ was my first rpg).

Funnily enough I was in Portsmouth for a brief time which is where I saw my first real gaming shop. I was excited to finally see some RQ stuff (Plunder and RuneMasters) but remember thinking I wasn't going to pay nearly a tenner for them. I did buy Cults of Terror eventually because at least it had lots of pages and bought Snakepipe Hollow. They seemed very expensive.

Once I went to uni I bought the GW box sets for CoC and Star Trek because they were full of stuff and less than a tenner so seemed like good value. By that point I had realised that if you bought Basic D&D you had to buy a whole load of other boxes too.

That's why in my youth the GW stuff seemed cheaper. Once I cracked and bought the RQ3 box set, everything else seemed cheaper. Think I got the V&V box set for £11.99 in 85. All the US imports were going up madly because of the dollar appreciation vs pound

 

[andyl]

For those youngsters reading who don't know what things cost in them days (1980 - for RQ2). A paperback fiction book was about £1.25. A hardback fiction book was about £6.95.

So, RQ sold for roughly 5 times the cost of a peprback.

Since paperbacks go for about, what, 6.00 nowadays, that means that an equivalent RQ would cost about 30 pounds. That seems expensive to me, but I'm used to gaming books being betwen 10-15 pounds, regardless of the actual costs now.

Worse than that. A paperback book now goes for £7.99 - at least that is the cover price and what you pay in bookshops.

However I don't think that the price multiplies like that. Just look at the hardback book price movement - from £6.95 to £17.99 over the same period. Nearly a factor of 3. Which will give about £24 if applied to RQ2's cost in 1980.

The fact that there are a number of RPGs you can buy today at or below the £10 point is probably testament to how slim the margins are (generally) in the industry. That something like Savage Worlds can be sold profitably (one assumes) for the same money an equivalent game would have cost 30 years ago quite frankly astounds me.

 

[PhilHibbs]

That something like Savage Worlds can be sold profitably (one assumes) for the same money an equivalent game would have cost 30 years ago quite frankly astounds me.

Printing costs have come down a lot - the set up cost for a print run is much, much lower, and smaller runs (with less risk) are therefore possible.

 

[Vile]

It's not that costs of producing paperbacks have gone through the roof. It's just that they're making far, far more profit nowadays.

 

[Morgan d'Barganfore]

That's assuming the same amount of units shipped. I doubt that is the case for High Street shops. Amazon is a better cost model for these days..

 

[simonh]

That is more reasonable. I couldn't remember the prices from those days so I looked it up in an old White Dwarf. £7.95 for Runequest. That compares to £5.75 for Traveller, £7.25 for D&D Basic, £3.50 for Tunnels & Trolls. £6.95 for Chivalry & Sorcery. Villians & Vigilantes was £4.95. AD&D was £9.90 for a DMG and £7.90 for a PHB (the MM was another £7.90) - notably a lot more expensive than anything else.

So although RQ2 was competitive in the market it wasn't quite "as cheap as it comes".

For the money it was excellent value though. The RQ II boxed set gave you a lot more to get your teeth into than any of the other games you mention.

I remember standing in a games shop in Shrewsbury deciding whether or not to buy it. I thought it seemed a bit expensive compared to some other games, but less than or about the same as an AD&D book, but for a boxed set. Tough choice. I think I must have already read one or two copies of White Dwarf, so I must have read a bit about it, maybe read an RQ scenario and seen what a stat block looked like. I think the fact it came with a scenario book, Apple Lane, clinched the deal. My reasoning was that even if we didn't like the game, the scenario might be interesting.

That was probably in around 1981 or 1982. Those old Runequest rules were overly complicated, clunky and confusing but it was love at first sight. Soon after Phil and I and sold all our AD&D books and used the cash to buy RQ supplements.

Simon Hibbs

 

[simonh]

That something like Savage Worlds can be sold profitably (one assumes) for the same money an equivalent game would have cost 30 years ago quite frankly astounds me.

Printing costs have come down a lot - the set up cost for a print run is much, much lower, and smaller runs (with less risk) are therefore possible.

The fact you don't have to manually typeset every page has got to make a huge difference.

It's also worth bearing in mind that many of those were boxed sets. RQ II and Traveller were boxed at least, though of course the AD&D books were hardbacks.

Simon hIBBS

 

[DamonJynx]

It's not that costs of producing paperbacks have gone through the roof. It's just that they're making far, far more profit nowadays.

Here in Australia an average bookshop is lucky to make 6% NPBT (Nett Profit Before Tax). The average price of a paperback (established authors) is around $23-25 AUD. Hardcovers are now around $40 AUD. Most RPG's (i.e. D&D, MRQ etc) are sold for around $40-$60 AUD. So I don't believe the profit is at the bookstore, remembering I'm talking about a bricks-and-mortar shop, not a massive online seller/warehouse like Amazon and similar.

There are basically 2 accepted methods for achieving sales and profit targets; high volume - low margin, which does not apply to RPG's, only really mass market paperbacks and other high volume, repeat purchase type industries, or low volume - high margin, RPG's (which would have much smaller print runs than general fiction/non-fiction books) and other niche products. There are products that fall somewhere in between but they are exceptions.

 

[anselyn]

That something like Savage Worlds can be sold profitably (one assumes) for the same money an equivalent game would have cost 30 years ago quite frankly astounds me.

Printing costs have come down a lot - the set up cost for a print run is much, much lower, and smaller runs (with less risk) are therefore possible.

The fact you don't have to manually typeset every page has got to make a huge difference.

It's also worth bearing in mind that many of those were boxed sets. RQ II and Traveller were boxed at least, though of course the AD&D books were hardbacks.

Simon hIBBS

It was/is also the case that there is no VAT (sales tax) on books in the UK. However, there is VAT for a game in box. Hence, I think that box sets attracted VAT, which was 15% then (?). Now, as you can get boxed sets of books that are clearly, er, books. I think it was the inclusion of any acessories like dice in the box that decided whether it was a game or a box (of books).

VAT is 20% now- quite a lot of extra, for example, on a WFRP3 box.

 

[Vile]

Sorry, I wasn't talking about bookshops, I was talking about publishers. I imagine bookshops' profits are dropping all the time.

 

[drdentista]

Haven't been here for a while, so the demise of 2nd age Glorantha is sad news, although it didn't exactly surprise me. The good news are, however, that the rules are to be continued under a new name. I have mixed feelings about Glorantha. On one hand I love the setting, the history, the richness of it all. I have followed RQ/Glorantha since RQII (Chaosium) and spent gazillions of money collecting the stuff over the years.

Yet, when it comes to actual playing, I always feel a little constrained in Glorantha. Yes, YGWV and all that, but my gaming group always preferred a good adventure over depth. Even now, when we've taken up actual playing after a very long time. Glorantha IS daunting to new GM:s, since there is so much to take in, and I can see that that alone can hold people back from the game.

I will sadly miss the 2nd age, that in my opinion holds promise of more adventure than 3rd age. I will continue work on my 2nd age Karia campaign and I think that the material published this far (counting in MRQ1) will last for a very long time for us.

So, thanks Pete and Loz and gang at Mongoose for the gaming stuff you've published this far. Excellent reading, and excellent Glorantha. I'll be looking into Wayfarer in the future...

 

[Morgan d'Barganfore]

Agree with last post.
Rules the same. Keep the material flowing please.

Magic rules have less impact (so far) in Deus Vult campaign

 

[Stainless]

I'm not in the business but if SW is going to a deluxe hardcover model for the SW corebook it could be that PEG have decided they weren't doing well enough with the digest model. That would be a shame. I personally think that the digest model is a good one but that's only from my viewing position.

My hasn't this thread moved on?!

RE: PEG and the Deluxe edition of SW. This will be a limited print run. They are doing a large format hardcover simply for the "deluxeness" of it and to cater to that segment of their customers who prefer hardcovers. Immediately after the current SWEX (3rd printing) sells out, they will turn the deluxe edition into the standard explorers edition format. They are in fact currently converting other large format titles into the same small format. Interestingly, they get their books printed in Asia and it takes about 4 months to get it done and then into the distribution chain. In contrast Mongoose get their printing in the USA.