[BFE] Destroyed Transports and allocating DD etc.

[Toru]

A couple of questions came up this weekend while demoing BFE at a gaming convention...

Who gets to allocate the DDs on a unit that got its transport killed? Attacker or the "owning" player?

Does a unit get to react after being "blown out of" the transport?

Does a unit get surpressed after being "blown out of" the transport?

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

1. the damage for units in a killed transport work differently to fire zones - each person takes one dice roll, rolled individually.

2. no - they're placed on the board at the end of the enemy's action

3 - i'm not 100% sure - but if you could be supressed it'd be a maximul of a single supression, and only then if none of the damage dice rolled against you come up 1.

 

[The Old Soldier]

3. I'd say no because your not allocating DD in a FZ. Your just rolling to see if any models were killed from the Vehicle that had DD allocated to it.

But, maybe MP will answer that one.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

I'd err on the side of no as well.

 

[shotgun-toting chipmunk]

Gotta disagree with you there, Old Soldier. If every model in a unit has a damage dice allocated to it in a single shoot action (after 1s are discarded), then that unit is suppressed. The explosion occurs during the shoot action, therefore the unit being transported can potentially be suppressed. As Lorgan stated, it would only be a single suppression.

Think of it this way: The vehicle you're riding in just blew up and you got thrown out of a hole that used to be the side. Assuming you actually survived, do you really think you're going to just hop up, dust off your fatigues, and charge forward? At the very least, your ears are going to be ringing something awful

 

[The Old Soldier]

We will just have to disagree. I believe the allocation already took place against the vehicle. The rest is just that.

 

[shotgun-toting chipmunk]

Well, here's the thing.

From the Basic Rules:

"If a unit is allocated at least as many damage dice in a single Shoot action as it had models then it will immediately lose its next action, and may only Move as a reaction."

From the Warrior "Transport" Rule:

"If the Warrior is destroyed, every model on board will immediately suffer a D6-1 Damage Dice."

The "immediately" indicates that it occurs within the same action, since it occurs before the action has ended and you can take another action.

Now, in counter to your argument, nowhere in the rules does it say that all the damage dice must be allocated in a single fire zone in order for a unit to be suppressed.

 

[Shadow4ce]

I'm thinking TOS is right as far as "rules as written" but I personally would play it like this...

On your turn, the squad who survived the destruction of their ride has to spend a "Ready" action on their first turn, just to get their "stuff" together and become a cohesive unit again. Kind of like the NCO would want to take a "sound-off" roll call as it were then have the men form up on him. Of course, if the Leader becomes a casualty as a result of the damage dice on the men, then the "Out of Command" rules supersede my idea. Of course, this idea came to me when I was discussing a "scatter roll" rule with my daughter for "troops who survive a vehicle destruction" to disperse them randomly around the vehicle - d8 for direction, d6 for distance.

I know this is not nor ever will be official, but it is how we do it here. For official, I refer you back to my first sentence, and The Old Soldier's take on this.

The reason I say TOS has it is as written is because the suppression rule refers to a "single Shoot action" and the "Transport" rule suggests the "immediate" Damage Dice is due to the vehicle's DESTRUCTION, resulting in the men being tossed from said vehicle; not directly from the the bullets whizzing in from the "Shoot" action. The destruction of the vehicle is the result of the Shoot action and it becomes a whole new action.

Kind of like dominoes, there is a cause and effect which can be linked to the Shoot action, but the DD assigned to the men is due to the vehicles inability to withstand the fire of the attacking force which makes it a new domino betwixt the Shoot action, and the passenger's DD roll. :wink:

(Last paragraph added in edit)

 

[The Old Soldier]

Who says that the troops riding in the vehicle had suffered damage from a firezone? Like I say, we will just have to disagree.

 

[shotgun-toting chipmunk]

Nobody. Your argument was:

3. I'd say no because your not allocating DD in a FZ.

To which I said that the rules do not require DD to be allocated in a Fire Zone.

Shadow4ce, there are only four types of actions in the game: Move, Shoot, Ready, Charge. There is no such thing as a "Vehicle Destruction" action. This isn't a game like 4th Ed. Battletech which has "End Phases" and such.

Remember that a shoot action includes resolving the effects of the action; the vehicles destruction (and subsequent effect on troops being carried) is included in that. Yes, it is a domino effect, but it still occurs within the action.

By way of example:

Begin Player 1 Turn

First Action: Shoot at Transport carrying Fire Team Alpha
Roll DD against Transport
Discard 1s
Allocate remaining DD
Transport destroyed as result of DD
Allocate DD to each model of Fire Team Alpha (discarding 1s)
Remove Kills
Make Armour Saves
Remove failed Armour Saves
Fire Team Alpha Suppressed (assuming no 1s)
End First Action

Second Action: Shoot at Fire Team Bravo
Roll DD against Fire Team Bravo models within Fire Zone
Discard 1s
Allocate remaining DD
Remove Kills
Make Armour Saves
Remove failed Armour Saves
Fire Team Bravo Suppressed (assuming each had DD allocated)
End Second Action

End Player 1 Turn

 

[Toru]

You can destroy vehicles without using shooting actions...

 

[lastbesthope]

I'd say DD allocated from an exploding vehicle can suppress.

Think of it this way, the splash damage from grenades, etc counts towards suppression doesn't it? And the splash can even extend outside the FZ.

A vehicle explosion is just a bigger splash to my mind.

LBH

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

It's really a question of the timing of effects - Infantry in a transport are in a sort of limbo where they don't count as in play for the purposes of shattering, yet can fire their weapons if they're in a technical. They take the damage roll from the transport being destroyed before they return to the table, which is where the question comes up for me - do the dice count towards supression if the unit isn't in play when they take the damage?

 

[The Old Soldier]

Same holds true with me. The DD allotted to the Vehicle caused it to be destroyed. The troops in it were not targeted. They just took damage from the Vehicles demise, not enemy fire. Suppression from the enemy fire would have taken place before hand, but as I clearly mentioned this is just a opinion, and a offical answer seems to be needed.

 

[warcraftgames]

I know that this is a bit of an old post, but I have a question which is an extension of the original set of questions ... So far we have been playing with the idea that a recently ejected squad can be supressed by the damage dice from the exploding transport.

So on to the question ...

With this in mind it has come up that if the squad from a destroyed vehicle is supressed then it should be allowed a reaction move to scramble to safety. Also in the case of a squad that is not supressed then it would stand to reason that they could perform a shoot reaction back at the unit that originaly blew up the transport.

Does this seem reasonable? What do you all do?

Regards,
M@

 

[Shadow4ce]

Shadow4ce, there are only four types of actions in the game: Move, Shoot, Ready, Charge. There is no such thing as a "Vehicle Destruction" action.

I deleted the part of your paragraph referencing Battletech, as I don't play it, thus it has no relevence here.

I'm fully aware what "Actions" are in this game and I never referred to "Vehicle Destruction" as being one. "Vehicle Destruction" is an event and a RESULT of an "Action" which you yourself admit when you refer to it as a "subsequent effect" in the next paragraph.

Remember that a shoot action includes resolving the effects of the action; the vehicles destruction (and subsequent effect on troops being carried) is included in that. Yes, it is a domino effect, but it still occurs within the action.

As for the vehicle's destruction being part of the shoot action I totally agree. However, the "subsequent effects" you mention, while I can see why you consider them part of it, IMHO are not. This is from me "reading the rules as written" from MY perspective (31 years of wargaming experience and too many years RL battle experience). This is not to say you are wrong, just that for me and TOS and probably others I am right. I'm sure there are as many who see it your way as see it ours.

As I said, I understand your point of view and feel you give logical arguments to support it. I also feel TOS' are just as easy to understand and as logical. This is one of those rules which can be interpreted either way and, until "official" word from MGP, will be read both ways by the playing community. As TOS said, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I feel any further rehashing of the points will only lead to argumentative comments and be counterproductive. I'll continue to play it the way I outlined until an official ruling by MGP, at which time I will evaluate their written text and decide whether to change my point of view or just "house-rule" it and continue playing it the way I am now.

BTW, before any of you decide to judge me and think you know me well enough to decide which way I will go after "official" ruling... I'd say I would go with the "official" ruling about 95-98% of the time, even if it disagrees with what I've been doing all along. I embrace change as inevitable and a growth experience I can use to my advantage, not something to be feared. Most "house-rules" I make are for things not covered in "official" text or for what to most people is an egregious error on the publisher's part. This usually requires others I respect to find the rule as lame or lamer than I do. :wink:

One other thing to keep in mind regardless of how you play it, there is a fair chance the squad will lose the leader as a result of the vehicle's destruction and be "Out of Command." Also,

...a model may only ever lose a maximum of two actions, even if both Suppressed and out of command.

Sorry my reply to this thread is a bit late and soo looooonnngg. I somehow never saw it's continuance until warcraftgames "bumped" it with his question, which I will now attempt to answer:

• NO if you play the Suppression the way TOS and I do
• YES if you play it the way STC and LBH do (Two very smart players with a good point of view, just not mine)

I for one feel a unit blown from a vehicle is likely to scramble around and find out who's a casualty and who is still combat effective as their "Reaction" without really being one in terms of game rules.

Ooh, Idea!

"Suppression" argument: Take 3!

• Perhaps instead of Suppression, make the tossed squad use a "Ready" action on their first action of their next turn to get their collective stuff together?

I feel this to be a good compromise of the two disparate view-points expressed in this thread. It would represent the effect of a single round of "Suppression" to pull it together without forcing them to lose the ability to "Shoot" as a "Reaction" if the enemy moved near or put further fire upon them! The times IRL when my transport was destroyed (once ending up inside it upside down) I came out firing and advancing to get some payback, as I was hopping mad at the world my ride had been serviced! :evil:

I think I'll test this forced "Ready" action out and see how it goes until we get an "official" response. :wink:

 

[cordas]

This came up in our game yesterday, how do models dismount a destroyed vehicle? (Apart from the obvious jump out of the burning / exploding transport) Do they get out touching the vehicle, or do they get the "normal" dismount move of their move score.

 

[The Old Soldier]

This came up in our game yesterday, how do models dismount a destroyed vehicle? (Apart from the obvious jump out of the burning / exploding transport) Do they get out touching the vehicle, or do they get the "normal" dismount move of their move score.

After rolling for losses, you make a normal dismount move.

 

[BuShips]

This came up in our game yesterday, how do models dismount a destroyed vehicle? (Apart from the obvious jump out of the burning / exploding transport) Do they get out touching the vehicle, or do they get the "normal" dismount move of their move score.

Um, I think it is a matter of the vehicle dismounting the models and not the models dismounting the vehicle. :lol:

Now for the serious part, I agree with TOS.

This is yet another thread that needs an official answer and then it placed into an FAQ. :idea: