BF:EVO Basic Rules Discussion

[dyssnowman]

One of the problems is that in these basic rules, it clearly says to roll the entire squad's attack dice at the same time. But, I guess in cases like this you just have to break down to shooting on an individual basis, but that goes against the whole roll everything, then assign dice method. Hopefully the main rulebook has more clarifications for special cases like this.

Not really though. If you are shooting at the single model, you just roll the dice and (probably) remove the model which is easy enough. The only down side would be if the single model was shooting. In this case, you just roll it's die(or dice) and apply it to the target unit, while the rest of his buddies just hang around and do nothing (or shoot defiantly at the wall :lol: ). There should be something on splitting fire in the main rules, which would help avoid the wasted action by the remainder of the unit, but other than that fact the basic rules seem to cover it quite well.

The tricky situation would be if part of the attacking unit has an obstructed LOS while another part of it has a clear LOS. In this case I would say go with a majority rule. If most of the attacking unit has a clear LOS ignore the bonus, but it most of the attacking unit has an obstructed LOS then apply the bonus to all of the target models. Seems like the easiest route IMO.

I think that for the second example, the easiest way to call it is that both enemy models can be seen without cover by a friendly trooper, so it's likely that those troopers would shoot at the model not in cover.

I agree with you that this is definitely the easiest, and the way that I would play it.

 

[Larac]

Going to try a few runs today of the rules, the Supression working the same on open targets and targets in cover still worries me though.


Cover should help reduce Suppression to some lvl, perhaps each level of cover reduces a Suppression die will work as a fix.

Light or low cover Lvl 1
Solid cover Building, Vechicle Lvl 2
Hard cover Re-enforced building
Snad bagged earthen firing pit Lvl 3

Bunker Lvl 4


or something like that.

Lee

 

[Paladin]

the Supression working the same on open targets and targets in cover still worries me though.

I don't see why not. Suppression <> taking damage.
Whether you are hiding behind sandbags or a hardened steel wall, you still aren't going to stick your head out when the enemy is pouring on fire. You're going to wait until they reload or there is a minor "slow down". If anything you are less likely to be suppressed in the open because you are going to run like heck for cover. Unless it's suicide to run through waves of fire and then you're going to drop and lower your profile. If you are behind solid cover the natural instinct is to remain there for protection.

 

[dyssnowman]

Adding in "cover levels" would just needlessly clutter things up. The system seem very smooth. Besides, you mention vehicles being level two cover, but tanks are immune to suppression. I would say your best bet is before you start making up all kinds of house rules wait for the main rulebook to come out and see what is covered in there.

 

[Turtle]

Larac, I can honestly say that you should not attempt to modify the game without first being very well versed in how it plays without modification.

That's the key. The BFE/SSTE rule set is very nuanced with lots of subtle interplay between rules. While each rule may seem very simple in itself, they interconnect in ways that might not seem readily apparent.

Making changes, or even thinking about making changes before having played many games is a bad idea not just because it can alter the game's balance and speed/flow. But also because looking at the game like you want to change it right out of the box may simply sour you on the game the very first time you play it.

Also remember that these are only the basic rules from the box set, they are not the full rules. There may be some method to avoid suppression in the full rules.

Either way, if the basic rules play this well, I'm sure the full rules will be quite good.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Actually, I'd almost consider the opposite. Troops in the open may well be encouraged to bug out, while troops in cover are almost certain to stay down, rather than leave cover, when fired upon.

 

[Larac]

Just hoping the game does not have a serious flaw that is going to hurt it, these QP rules have to hold for 3 months, in a game store that can be a long time.

Releasing in Jan is a great idea, few do it and thats a plus.

Also I was under the thoughts that Mongoose would like to know what folks were thinking, if no one voices concern when they think they see a problem, then it is doomed.

Time will tell, but if 3 MGs keep 40 figs from moving each turn, the game will have major issues, and folks may give up before "real" rules in March.

Lee

 

[Col. Hammer]

Time will tell, but if 3 MGs keep 40 figs from moving each turn, the game will have major issues, and folks may give up before "real" rules in March.

3 MGs have firepower of 12 dice... how on earth will they stop 40 figs from moving?

The opponen will be shooting his guns at you too (grenade launchers and MGs too). The MG positions can get suppressed too...

And put a Leopard or Abrams on the table and see what the MGs are worth then. Combined arms works wonders.

 

[Locutus9956]

tbh cover is pretty irrelevant to supression as modeled in the rules. Supression is basically making people either hit the deck or duck back behind that rock they were peering around etc etc. It only really relates to the volume of incoming fire and to a lesser extent, how impervious to said fire the target is itself (that is to say how likely the target would be to just shrug off a hit should it take one (ie why tanks dont get surpressed (also if a tank gets worried it cant really hit the deck anyway ).

Cover only affects how likely you are to actually get HIT it has little to no effect on the psychological effect of hundreds of bullets whizzing past you.... As someone pointed out, if anything a unit in the open should be LESS vulnerable to supression, as without any cover to duck behind one is more prone to return fire as the only way to avoid being killed!

As an example:

Your walking across a big field and someone in the oposite treeline suddenly opens up on you with an M249. There is no tall grass, your a good 400 yards from the trees in any direction. There is no cover at all. and the ground is perfecly flat. (Its a hypothetical situation, I doubt any soldier on earth would be stupid enough to walk through the middle of such a field in a combat zone without a damn good reason!)

Do you
a) run for the trees anyway hoping you can run 400 yards before you get killed

b) hit the deck in the hope that you will survive all that fire anyway

c) return fire in the hope of either killing or forcing the gunner to take cover himself allowing you time to run for it

Heres an alternate situation. Your crouched behind a solid concrete block looking round the side with your rifle. Suddenly someone in an oposite building (again about 400 yards away) opens up on you with an M249 bullets are pinging off the concrete all around you but he cant actually hit you behind the block.

Do you

a) Run for another possition

b) Stick your head out and fire back hoping to hit a tiny target amidst a veritable wall of return fire

c) Stay where you are and keep your head down till he either runs out of ammo, or someone else can surpress him.

If you answered a) to either of the above then you are obviously a very brave (possibly foolish) individual, but at least you didnt.....

If you answered b) to either of the above then you are quite clearly nuts and have a deathwish! Stay the hell away from my foxhole!

If you answered c) then there may be hope for you yet (ok these are both very simple examples and both pretty dire situations for 1 man on foot anyway but it should hopefully illustrate my point adequately)

 

[Locutus9956]

Oh also I thought in the rules surpressed units could still move, just not fire?

 

[dyssnowman]

Oh also I thought in the rules surpressed units could still move, just not fire?

If I understand correctly, while you are suppressed the only reaction that you can make is to move. The actions within the turn (less the one for being suppressed) are not affected.

 

[Larac]

So sorry your right more like with present units 21 dice of Suppression.

40 was a gut reaction to the disagree get slapped mode the board seems to be drifting into, (see diversty thread for even more)

I saw what could lead to an issue with the current set of rules, and rather than just gripe also added a possible solution.

I'll leave it now for Mongoose to decide.

Have a good holiday
Lee
signing off

 

[britneyfan97]

i think that cover levels could work... if you figure that 1's are already being discarded for supression why not 2's and 3's progressively as the cover is built up from prepared fighting positions to reinforced concrete bunkers with narrow firing slats (admittedly a very infrequent sight on the modern battlefield - it just begs for a JDAM).

my concern though is concerning this whole 'splitting fire' thing that keeps getting mentioned. Look at the USMC card- with the MERS system the command range extends to 12". That creates a lot of possibility for one or two troops (because you never go anywhere without your battle-buddy) in a fire team/squad to be actively engaged against an enemy the rest of the group might not see. So if the rest of the squad is engaging a mass of MEA militia for example, and two Marine Rifleman at the max 12" command radius(without LOS to the main mass of MEA) observe a group of MEA RPG teams looking for a good firing position. Are the Marines firing with penalty modifiers as a 'split group'?

And someone else brought up that the 'Fire Zone' is a bad idea for trained troops. I know what you're trying to say - I know where you're going with this, but I still disagree with you. A tactical shooter (read: sniper) is going to focus on pinpointing targets... a regular infantry squad is going to use fire and maneuver. That starts by supressing the enemy with superior fire, and then maneuveriung in such a manner as to negate any covered postition they may have assumed.
But if everyone in the squad is trying to pinpoint their targets, they arent going to do much more than get themselves killed - when the enemy uses fire and maneuver.

 

[Paladin]

I saw what could lead to an issue with the current set of rules, and rather than just gripe also added a possible solution.

And the best route to take. Opposite opinions appeared, but hang tough and ignore the barbs of some.

 

[Darkghost]

Heres an alternate situation. Your crouched behind a solid concrete block looking round the side with your rifle. Suddenly someone in an oposite building (again about 400 yards away) opens up on you with an M249 bullets are pinging off the concrete all around you but he cant actually hit you behind the block.

Do you

a) Run for another possition

b) Stick your head out and fire back hoping to hit a tiny target amidst a veritable wall of return fire

c) Stay where you are and keep your head down till he either runs out of ammo, or someone else can surpress him.

If you answered a) to either of the above then you are obviously a very brave (possibly foolish) individual, but at least you didnt.....

If you answered b) to either of the above then you are quite clearly nuts and have a deathwish! Stay the hell away from my foxhole!

If you answered c) then there may be hope for you yet (ok these are both very simple examples and both pretty dire situations for 1 man on foot anyway but it should hopefully illustrate my point adequately)

Now this I will disagree with. I won't disagree with your answer A, an MG can hold down all your movement lanes at up to about 600 yards, so not smart as one man... however hiding behind a block like that is not fun, and if I was getting shot at in there, my first thought would be find better cover. Sure, its impenatrable, but if you stay theres only 1 place you can fire from, either he's gonna get you, or his teammates will move closer while you hide behind your brick and just kill you.

I would choose B. You're 400 hards away, if you snap-shoot a few times, and minimize your exposure while you are firing, his probability of hitting you is very small. It's very important to keep an eye on the battlefield.

As far as rules go, if you're running in the open and an M249 starts shooting at you.... you're still gonna be running in the open. If your peering and firing from a building and an M249 opens up on you... you're probably going to shy away for a little bit. Someone very trained will find another window, but what happens is pretty much the equivalent of losing an action.

 

[Kristovich]

I think that reactions and actions can be taken like this, with the supression and all.

Example 1, Reactions: A squad of ETEF are pinned by a PLA MG. Suddenly an PLA squad comes in where they have a clear shot at the ETEF squad. As things are in a hurry and the squad leader may be rather stressed my guess is he will most likely get his squad inte cover from both of the enemies.

As for actions, they are more organised decisions, so a supressed unit could still shot, just not as much as if they weren't supressed (they still don't want to make themselves a target).

 

[Turtle]

Guys. It's a game, not a simulation. If you want a simulation there's plenty of other modern 28mm rules out there to use the BFE rules with.

BFE is meant to be a game first and foremost. You don't have to justify every game rule. The rule as it stands is a simple and effective way of modeling suppression whilst keeping the game flowing smoothly.

It's like trying to rationlize monopoly rules by looking at real estate market theory and historical trends.

 

[Paladin]

With regard to shattered, it says that you count the number of models on the board and if your force drops below 25% your morale is shattered and you must retreat. With regard to vehicles do you count that as 1 model or do you actually use its Size to determine the # of models it represents?

 

[Turtle]

Just models. Size doesn't factor in.

The Shattered rule is mainly for the basic game where they needed a quick way to decide the victor in a fight.

The main rulebook has other scenarios with different victory conditions.

 

[Paladin]

So if I lose 8 of my 9 Marines (185 pts), my 400 pt Abrams is useless??