Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
My dream employer!
BF:EVO Basic Rules Discussion
- Thread starter darklord4
- Start date
dyssnowman
Mongoose
I am wondering if the fireteam concept will be carried over to SST, at least for the MI. It would make sense to have something similar for the Skinnies as well. The bugs obviously don't need it, and the Forth with their massive battle walkers shouldn't either. This would give the MI more flexibility and also eliminate the need for splitting fire rules.
My 2 cents, though I am sure that Hiro will taught us by acting smug again. :roll: :lol:
My 2 cents, though I am sure that Hiro will taught us by acting smug again. :roll: :lol:
dyssnowman
Mongoose
*tapping head...* Ah, but you forgot about my cranium of titanium!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Well, at least you didn't whistle again.
Well, at least you didn't whistle again.
dyssnowman
Mongoose
:shock: Umm... Hang on one sec...
*running far away from Hiro and yelling from a distance*
Good luck with that Hiro! :lol:
*running far away from Hiro and yelling from a distance*
Good luck with that Hiro! :lol:
Okay cool, because the quick start rules are just plain odd and certainly don't do the game any justice. We decided to try a few changes:
"All models in the same unit with the same weapon must take the same action"
"All models in the same unit with the same weapon must shoot at the same Fire Zone."
They seem to work okay. So when a gunner readies his weapon as his action, the riflemen in his unit are shooting instead of sitting around daydreaming. And when a unit is shooting at some infantry and a tank pops out 7" away from the centre of their Fire Zone the AT guy can choose to attack the tank instead. Feels more like a modern skirmish game.
I'm still not real happy about the Fire Zone rule. I can see why they had it in SST, the Troopers in the movie had absolutely no weapon discipline and were just blindly firing in the general direction of the bugs, often directly across from other Troopers. I've seen vids of terrorists in Iraq fighting much the same way, spraying with their AKs. The Fire Zone rule is perfect for simulating both of those situations. I can't speak for other nationalities, but Australian soldiers are trained to select a target, not spray in the general vicinity. They're expected to kill what they aim at and any soldier with a habit of hitting the wrong target because it happened to be closer would soon get his butt kicked by the guys in his section. The problem is, take out the Fire Zone rule for trained soldiers and you stuff up the Suppression rules so I guess it stays for now. What a mess.
Unless, you make the Fire Zone optional. Troops can combine fire and thereby apply the Fire Zone rule and possible suppression OR fire at individual targets with no chance of suppression. That might work.
The rules say that if a tank and infantry are in the same Fire Zone, the riflemen can fire on the infantry while the AT attacks the tank because it is size 2 or greater. The rule change made above not only allows you to still do that but also allows the AT to attack the tank if it is 7"+ away. In the quick start rules, an enemy 7"+ away from the Fire Zone around the infantry could not be attacked, so the AT guy has to ignore the tank bearing down on him in plain sight.
If the squad manages to survive and escape imagine their AT guy saying, "I thought I could only shoot at what you guys were shooting at unless they were next to each other" after the battle.
If the squad manages to survive and escape imagine their AT guy saying, "I thought I could only shoot at what you guys were shooting at unless they were next to each other" after the battle.
Soulmage
Mongoose
Heavy weapons and small arms being forced to shoot at the same target is probably the single thing I dislike most about 40k. Hopefully they'll make some changes like you suggest.
I did suggest that one squad member be allowed to ready an action while the others take a shoot action. . . or something similar to that. . . but I don't know if it made the cut. Have to see when the final rulebook comes out. If it didn't I'm sure there's a good reason for it that turned up in playtest.
I did suggest that one squad member be allowed to ready an action while the others take a shoot action. . . or something similar to that. . . but I don't know if it made the cut. Have to see when the final rulebook comes out. If it didn't I'm sure there's a good reason for it that turned up in playtest.
I'm really excited about this game so I hope you're right Soulmage and they agree with us. I'd like to use the official rules as opposed to house rules, but if worse comes to worse I can always just take to the rulebook with a black marker.
But Hiromoon, a fire team with an AT and 2 riflemen is still in the same boat as a squad with 2 ATs, 1 MG and 7 riflemen. A unit (whether squad or fire team) has to attack the same fire zone and perform the same action.
But Hiromoon, a fire team with an AT and 2 riflemen is still in the same boat as a squad with 2 ATs, 1 MG and 7 riflemen. A unit (whether squad or fire team) has to attack the same fire zone and perform the same action.
So for suppression, when they mean assigned damage dice, that's basically any time a unit is being shot at, not just if those dice reach the target value, right?
Is the reason why the PLA even have a kill stat for their infantry is just for completeness? If they get hit they die. Cover doesn't give an armor save in this game.
When shooting, how do you determine if an enemy model can be allocated damage dice? Say an odd situation arrives like this:
Where X are PLA and O are MEA, the lines are the corner of a building that blocks LOS. Both sides have one model that can see the entire enemy team, but the rest can only see one enemy model. Would player simply lay down the fire zone and roll away or would they have to go to individual model shooting within the fire zone?
Is it possible to get cover from wall corners by shooting around them?
In another odd situation involving cover
The same configuration, Xs are MEA and the O PLA. THe PLA want to shoot at the MEA troops, and put them both well inside a fire zone. THe lines are a low wall that gives cover. Would neither MEA get cover or both of them get cover?
Is the reason why the PLA even have a kill stat for their infantry is just for completeness? If they get hit they die. Cover doesn't give an armor save in this game.
When shooting, how do you determine if an enemy model can be allocated damage dice? Say an odd situation arrives like this:
Code:
x x x x
o ________________
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o |
o o |
o |Where X are PLA and O are MEA, the lines are the corner of a building that blocks LOS. Both sides have one model that can see the entire enemy team, but the rest can only see one enemy model. Would player simply lay down the fire zone and roll away or would they have to go to individual model shooting within the fire zone?
Is it possible to get cover from wall corners by shooting around them?
In another odd situation involving cover
Code:
X|X
|
|
|
|
|
o oThe same configuration, Xs are MEA and the O PLA. THe PLA want to shoot at the MEA troops, and put them both well inside a fire zone. THe lines are a low wall that gives cover. Would neither MEA get cover or both of them get cover?
weasel_fierce
Mongoose
as far as I've understood it, any assigned die (except for 1's) counts for suppression.
Any model in the firezone, that can be seen by any member of the firing squad, is a possible target.
AFAIK
Any model in the firezone, that can be seen by any member of the firing squad, is a possible target.
AFAIK
dyssnowman
Mongoose
In response to the first question...
"Every model with a weapon can use it to attack any enemy that it can see and is within range..."
From this one sentence, the single model that can see and be seen by the whole team can target the whole unit or be targeted by the whole unit. All models that don't have line of sight are not effected. Note that this is a big change from the original SST rules, one for the better IMO.
As for the second....
Let's see... The terrain only obscures the LOS, so only the Target score receives a bonus. Well, first you would have to roll, discarding the ones. Then you would assign the highest roll first, then the next highest. So 1s are out along with any rolls that equal the Kill. Hmmm...
Okay. Assuming that both of the models in this example are only equipped with assault rifles (meaning that they only do a single D6 worth of damage) then cover would be irrelevant. Given a choice of shooting at a target right in front of you or a target that is partially obscured, you logically would shot at the target in the open.
If one or both of them has a SAW of some kind (meaning that they roll multiple D6) then things could get a little trickier. I would say that the first die assigned to the target ignores the modifier, while any additional die would have to exceed the modified target value.
Not an official answer, but the most logical one that I can think of.
As for the suppression question, let's take another look at the rules...
"Roll Damage Dice for your entire unit. Discard all Damage Dice that roll a natural '1'. There represent missed shots or ammunition jams.
The highest scoring Damage Dice must be allocated to the nearest model within the Fire Zone, the next highest scoring Damage Dice to the next nearest model, and so on. If all models within the Fire Zone have been allocated a Damage Dice, then you are free to allocate any remaining Damage Dice to models as you see fit."
As you can see, all of the 1's are discarded and don't have any affect at all. The other die rolls are all assigned, regardless of whether they are able to damage the model or not. If you look at the Suppression rules, they say...
"If a unit is allocated at least as many damage dice in a single Shoot action as it had models then it will immediately lose its next action, and may only Move as a reaction."
So it doesn't matter if all of the damage dice actually do damage or not, only that they were assigned to the models in the target unit.
Hope this helps.
"Every model with a weapon can use it to attack any enemy that it can see and is within range..."
From this one sentence, the single model that can see and be seen by the whole team can target the whole unit or be targeted by the whole unit. All models that don't have line of sight are not effected. Note that this is a big change from the original SST rules, one for the better IMO.
As for the second....
Let's see... The terrain only obscures the LOS, so only the Target score receives a bonus. Well, first you would have to roll, discarding the ones. Then you would assign the highest roll first, then the next highest. So 1s are out along with any rolls that equal the Kill. Hmmm...
Okay. Assuming that both of the models in this example are only equipped with assault rifles (meaning that they only do a single D6 worth of damage) then cover would be irrelevant. Given a choice of shooting at a target right in front of you or a target that is partially obscured, you logically would shot at the target in the open.
If one or both of them has a SAW of some kind (meaning that they roll multiple D6) then things could get a little trickier. I would say that the first die assigned to the target ignores the modifier, while any additional die would have to exceed the modified target value.
Not an official answer, but the most logical one that I can think of.
As for the suppression question, let's take another look at the rules...
"Roll Damage Dice for your entire unit. Discard all Damage Dice that roll a natural '1'. There represent missed shots or ammunition jams.
The highest scoring Damage Dice must be allocated to the nearest model within the Fire Zone, the next highest scoring Damage Dice to the next nearest model, and so on. If all models within the Fire Zone have been allocated a Damage Dice, then you are free to allocate any remaining Damage Dice to models as you see fit."
As you can see, all of the 1's are discarded and don't have any affect at all. The other die rolls are all assigned, regardless of whether they are able to damage the model or not. If you look at the Suppression rules, they say...
"If a unit is allocated at least as many damage dice in a single Shoot action as it had models then it will immediately lose its next action, and may only Move as a reaction."
So it doesn't matter if all of the damage dice actually do damage or not, only that they were assigned to the models in the target unit.
Hope this helps.
dyssnowman said:
One of the problems is that in these basic rules, it clearly says to roll the entire squad's attack dice at the same time. But, I guess in cases like this you just have to break down to shooting on an individual basis, but that goes against the whole roll everything, then assign dice method. Hopefully the main rulebook has more clarifications for special cases like this.
I think that for the second example, the easiest way to call it is that both enemy models can be seen without cover by a friendly trooper, so it's likely that those troopers would shoot at the model not in cover.
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