Beyond the Abyss - Groups and Fleet listings

[Itkovian]

Hm well don't know if I was getting all the good rolls so much as I seemed to get them, or EP didn't when it really mattered, he pulled off two repairs on teh trot, won initiative so often it was embarassing and I think he got all the Vital System Crits that were rolled.
Best I managed was a 3-6, but typically when I really needed it!

Oh and yes Blue Stars are really good Patrol ships, probably as good as a Corvan if not better

 

[LaranosTZ]

*shrugs* In two out of the three games I played, the dice did not roll anywhere near average, and in both cases it seemed the curve very much seemed to favor my opponent. I think TN has a point, because in both cases I was fighting opponents using small groupings of highly powerfull dice, whereas I was using bucketloads of dice. My game vs. Tneva was the only one remotely balanced, and he had a similar fleet, ie bucketloads of dice vs. small groupings. Even then, he had a tendency to break up his bucketloads into smaller groupings of the auto-split dice, and overall rolled better then I did fairly consistantly.

As to why I don't want to play anymore, the frustration in dealing with vassal and the dice rolling discrepencies has simply made the game no longer fun for me to play for now. I need to take a step back before I get -really- pissed at the game. I enjoy meeting new players and the like, but right now I don't even want to get -near- vassal.

 

[emperorpenguin]

from personal experiance I would say random is not something that fits these dice, they do seem to lean towards one person a lot, every game I have played, I have sat in frustration at the crits i receive, as my own "rolls" result in 1's and 2's a disproportionate amount.

that seemed to happen between myself and Itkovian

Every single turn he'd roll very low for initiative and I'd roll extremely high.
In combat it was opposite. I couldn't get crits, he was swimming in them! :wink: I couldn't pass a CQ test, he passed most

I jokingly told katadder we need a new random number generator I had no idea other people felt exactly the same thing! :shock: :lol:

 

[CZuschlag]

This is distributed under the GNU license, right? Then we should be able to reverse compile this thing and see just what the randomizer is.

 

[Triggy]

from personal experiance I would say random is not something that fits these dice, they do seem to lean towards one person a lot, every game I have played, I have sat in frustration at the crits i receive, as my own "rolls" result in 1's and 2's a disproportionate amount.

that seemed to happen between myself and Itkovian

Every single turn he'd roll very low for initiative and I'd roll extremely high.
In combat it was opposite. I couldn't get crits, he was swimming in them! :wink: I couldn't pass a CQ test, he passed most

I jokingly told katadder we need a new random number generator I had no idea other people felt exactly the same thing! :shock: :lol:

But how would each player roll consistantly these sort of dice (both rolling the same number of dice)?

If you want one bit of statistical evidence on the RNG you can find it here: http://www.vasl.org/vassal/RNG.html

Just another explanation in a thread to put some words to debate:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/vassalengine/message/4496

Checking back on the logfile, against LaranosTZ, I rolled poorly on init (not a consideration given the disparity in our modifiers), well on hits, averagely (LaranosTZ rolled poorly here) on dogfights, average on damage table (few crits and few bulkheads), poorly on which crits happened and well on repairs. LaranosTZ seemed to roll fairly averagely across the board (except for dogfights and one beam shot that was very unlucky) but didn't have that many shots all game due to where the ships were positioned.

 

[Triggy]

Out of curiosity, why is it you find Vassal frustrating? If it's the dice then all I can say is that they're no different from real life dice (they're probably more random

Or not. Depends on how the random number generator is implemented...

He mentioned(and somebody else whose name I forget) that the system breaks down when you roll them in small batches. Ie you get more of average when rolling 24 dice with Xd6 than with 4 batches of 6.

One explanation could be that they reseed the generator every time dice generator is thrown which is incredibly stupid(and completely opposite way pseudo-random generators are supposed to be used...) way to do it but which is(or was) used by atleast one professional game that I know...So why not Vassal(is it professional or amateur made? If amateur then this could be very simple flaw which slipped through...). This could easily generate such a behaviour as he pointed out...

The generator isn't reseeded:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/vassalengine/message/4498

Sorry folks but Vassal is as random (or more random) than real dice despite the anecdotal evidence. I think the people with "even" games just stay quiet and those with games affected by luck blame the program rather than the dice (not that there's anything wrong with this as we all do it )

 

[emperorpenguin]

But how would each player roll consistantly these sort of dice (both rolling the same number of dice)?.

no idea but as Itkovian said he won initiative maybe twice all game, where I passed CQs maybe two turns

It did seem that every time one of us rolled well the other rolled badly straight after

 

[Burger]

from personal experiance I would say random is not something that fits these dice, they do seem to lean towards one person a lot, every game I have played, I have sat in frustration at the crits i receive, as my own "rolls" result in 1's and 2's a disproportionate amount.

And that's never happened using real dice? Ask Tank and Reaverman!

I think you just notice it more on a computer, because you are watching out for it, and naturally suspisious of the randomness. Whereas with real dice there is no doubt to their randomness, so you just accept the results.

 

[CZuschlag]

I'm more suspicious of some people's real world dice than computer dice! I know some folks -- none of my local current ACtA acquaintances -- who have had dice which have .... different centers of mass than normal, shall we say?

 

[H]

I dunno, I know that Dice can be as annoying as vasell, but they never seem to be quite so blatant. I'll still play vassal, if I ever install it again, but it does get bloody annoying watching those 16 crits on your G'Quan alone, when you have done like 3 all game!

 

[katadder]

sorry to the guys who have already played Laranos then, if he really does want to pull out then I will have to scrap the points for the games you have already played. it does mean both groups are down to 5 people then.

laranos if you really want out send me a PM but please dont expect to be included in future tourneys.

 

[LaranosTZ]

I think when you look at dice rolls over an entire game, yes things are going to look more average. After all, with any 'random' number generator, the longer you tally the numbers, the closer it is going to lean towards 'average'. What I've noticed though with Vassal is that it has a tendency to run in strings. IE, a singe set of rolls will have a tendency to either roll low or high for the entire set. In the long run this averages out, because if you have strings of high numbers, then strings of low numbers, when you look at it afterwards everything appears average. That doesn't mean that the die roller isn't flawed, it just means that over time, everything evens out.

 

[Romu]

If anyone from group two is available tonight, i'd be willing to get my ass kicked

 

[operative 6678]

If anyone from group two is available tonight, i'd be willing to get my ass kicked

pm sent to your inbox

 

[emperorpenguin]

I played Operative 6678 last night. Itkovian was right about me getting some overdue luck!
I seemed to inflict several crippling criticals in rapid succession

 

[operative 6678]

Yes I played my first game of the tournament, my first game in any sort of competitive nature and my first game against another human being against emperorpenguin and his Centauri ‘n’ guess what? I lost, in quite a big way.

The game rolled was assassination with a little scenery. My attempts to out flank using the scenery and the sacrifice of initiative sinks by squadroning the ships into 3 groups in the hope that they would get to fire first before his beams could tear into me failed.

Instead it left emperorpenguin free to concentrate all his efforts on the first 2 groups before my Hyperions were in range. By the end of the 3rd turn (I think it was 3rd), it was pretty much all over with. My ship had struggled to get into range to do anything and the damage was one Hermes burnt out hulk adrift and the other Hermes plus the Nova and Omega all destroyed (all beam & crit victims) for his 1 Maximus destroyed (by the omega’s beam and my first and think only crit dished out). The Hyperions had not even got into firing range.

The Crits had added to my failed tactics and with only the Hyperions and 2 fighter flights left against most of his fleet almost completely untouched, I conceded. I didn’t really feel like being completely massacred in my first game.

You live and learn - well the 2 Hermes, Nova and Omega didn’t, but due to a quark in space and time that some scientists are calling a Phasic Loop Of Temporal Harmonised Oscillating Linearesque Energy (P.L.O.T.H.O.L.E), my ships have popped back into existence and will be there to face my next opponent

I have to say emperorpenguin was very helpful and I enjoyed the game (apart from all the bits where my ships exploded)

 

[emperorpenguin]

my first game against another human being against emperorpenguin and his Centauri

not 100% sure I'm human :lol:

but due to a quark in space and time that some scientists are calling a Phasic Loop Of Temporal Harmonised Oscillating Linearesque Energy (P.L.O.T.H.O.L.E),

:lol:

It was a good game, and interesting to see Laranos spectating and watching the dice rolls keenly!

 

[tneva82]

Faced CZushlack(or something like that) Drakh's with my EA fleet. Oh boy this killed my chances for semi's Which, concidering situation, isn't neccessarily that bad...

End result was 37-15 for CZushlack(or something like that) favour. Drakh's took out 2 nova's and hermes at which point I decided to get the hell out there and got into safety with omega and hermes One hermes got very doomed(unable to escape, 1 point of damaged from destruction, plenty of time to finish it off, next to mothership...We didn't even bother to play the hunt ). I bagged 3 raiders and that's it...

Now here's the problem: My network is VERY unstable and for some reason Vassal itself shuts down randomly. So playing experience can be less than pleasant :-/ If you think you don't like the sound of opponent losing connection possibly every 10 minutes or so I can give up the game in question. If you want the game I'll soldier it through. Only few more games anyway...

Just thought it would be fair to warn. If you do want to play the game PLEASE be patient...

If I had known just how bad this is I wouldn't have signed up for the tournament in a first place

 

[CZuschlag]

Confirming the result of 37-15 for a net 16-4 vp match.

And Tneva82 is too kind --- it was zero trouble at all to play with him. I'm just sorry that he feels it was an unpleasant experience. It isn't at all --- I highly recommend "soldiering through" -- you won't be!

Really, I got the terrain of my dreams -- tons of stuff on the board everywhere, 6 pieces of terrain, and the Drakh Raiderstack just eats that up. That said, the Drakh Neutron Cannons from the Heavy Raiders were vicious to even the Novas, and the loadout of Standard missiles made the Hermes safely GEGable. It was a good matchup for me and an excellent terrain board; I would've had a hard time designing the terrain better if I could have placed it.

 

[tneva82]

Confirming the result of 37-15 for a net 16-4 vp match.

And Tneva82 is too kind --- it was zero trouble at all to play with him. I'm just sorry that he feels it was an unpleasant experience. It isn't at all --- I highly recommend "soldiering through" -- you won't be!

Game was pleasant, having constantly reboot mobile phone and restart vassal wasn't :-(

Dunno how it appeared on your side. On my side I was grinding my teeth and curse these overly complicated mobile phones(why they can't just be PHONES! Why they had to turn to mini-computers? I swear rebooting computer is faster...). And wondering what the heck is wrong with my vassal?

Really, I got the terrain of my dreams -- tons of stuff on the board everywhere, 6 pieces of terrain,

Yeah Terrain was somewhat problematic for me. And of course those darned heavy raiders...Nova's were dogmeat against those buggers.

and the loadout of Standard missiles made the Hermes safely GEGable.

Yep. My fleet really sucks against Drakh's. Let's see...Hermes: Practically useless(what with all those dodge's and GEG's...). Fighters: Nearly useless(being reduced to crit hunting...). Main firepower: Pulse cannons: Wopedoo! GEG hurts those as well, especially with dodge.

Don't know if clear board would have helped much but definetly put me into problems. I COULD have done with 2 turns to shoot with omega for example But they were able to use asteroids to hide...