Basic Rules Question

[Kevin Clark]

Here's a question that came up in our last Campaign turn.

Fighter Wings can be puchased to replenish fighters from ships that have lost flights. Is the reverse true? I.e. can fighters be drawn from existing craft to form Wings (to be used in Patrol level games for example)?

This is particularly relevant to Raiders who depend heavily on fighters at low level. This has a particular bearing on the Raiders Campaign in that if Wings can be formed from fighters drawn from craft, spare carriers can be employed simply as fighter generators, replenishing then transfering craft to new/existing wings in the RR phase.

 

[G´berg]

In ours it has been a point of discussion too.

Burger asked it in the Rulesmasters section and Mr. Sprange answered this:

"I would say you can use them to either form independant wing, or to replace losses"

But I don´t know if it´s been considered that those wings, bought independently, are much more expensive than the whole carrier during a campaign.

That´s a big leak specially for mimbari. A carrier costs 20 RRs and brings 8 nials, wich would cost 40...
Yeah I know it´s not a big advantage, but it´s still unbalanced. I think.
We ran mad when we though about the drakh, you know...
What happens to the craft when a carrier is destroyed but they are not?

We have decided a home rule.... against the will of the master, you know. (oh great ruler we beg you forgive us).
We just allow those fighters to stay at bay waiting and to replenish other carriers or ships whose fighters are destroyed, but not to form independent wings.

But this is only an amateur solution. The official said as I told.

 

[Hash]

I think rulesmasters and the 'official' ruling/interpretation is only important when it comes to tournaments when everyone needs a common set of rules and interpretation of said rules to fairly compete.

In a campaign game, which is usually between friends at a local club or whatever, as far as I'm concerned, as long as the people in the campaign are happy you should play by any rules you care to and ignore any rules that don't make sense to you or you collectively agree don't suit your playing style...that's what house rules are for

We have decided a home rule.... against the will of the master, you know. (oh great ruler we beg you forgive us).
We just allow those fighters to stay at bay waiting and to replenish other carriers or ships whose fighters are destroyed, but not to form independent wings.

Personally, I agree with the ruling that G'berg's group use which makes more sense to me for the reasons he outlines.

 

[Burger]

Burger asked it in the Rulesmasters section and Mr. Sprange answered this:

"I would say you can use them to either form independant wing, or to replace losses"

No no no!! Fighters cannot be voluntarily moved out of ships to form or replenish wings. They can only be moved to other ships.

The question I asked, was what happens if the carrier is destroyed but the fighters survive. In this situation, they can be used to form or replenish wings.

mimbari

Grrrrrrr

 

[G´berg]

"The question I asked, was what happens if the carrier is destroyed but the fighters survive. In this situation, they can be used to form or replenish wings."

Yeah, I was talking about that too. Somebody could buy a carrier, use it in a battle and let it be destroyed (or it can be destroyed by means of an non-tricky engagement) and would be sparing a lot of RRs.

About the mimbari "question", well, sorry. I confront them this week... when they are friends use to say "mindbari" as a praise.

 

[Burger]

Ohh, thought you meant using the carrier as a fighter generator by losing a few fighters, regening 2 per turn, and moving these 2 out to wings. That wouldn't be allowed.

As for deliberately losing carriers, well a Morshin costs 20 RR. A battle in which you deliberately lose it, you wold probably not win so you lose 10 or 15 RR there plus any RR generated by the strategic target. The 8 Nials you get free, are worth 40 RR. You'd also be horrendously ripped off when you take these Nials to a battle, since you still only get 1 per patrol point, so independent wings of Nials really aren't worth getting.

It's not really worth doing it deliberately IMO, except maybe for restocking other ships fighters, in which case you can do that without losing your carrier.

 

[Locutus9956]

Fighters cannot be moved out of a carrier voluntarily as it stands though I would personally like to see this rule changed. /shrug

 

[Keith]

Is there a distinction betwween a carrier and a ship with the carrier trait? There is according to the Carrier clash scenario. and here lies the crux from a campaign viewpoint. Can ships with the carrier trait be used to replensh (over a number of capaigne turns given the fighter transfer rules) fighters lost on other ships, or indeed separateley purchased wings of auxillary craft.
Obviously using this mechanism to create new wings out of thin air should be expressly prohibited.
Note that certain races (those with no carrier trait ships, e.g. Narn) are discriminated against with the Armageddon fighter replenishment rules.

 

[Burger]

Is there a distinction betwween a carrier and a ship with the carrier trait?

Yes, Drakh Carrier for example, does not have the Carrier trait.

 

[H]

Is there a distinction betwween a carrier and a ship with the carrier trait?

Yes, Drakh Carrier for example, does not have the Carrier trait.

all that technology and they can't make a carrier carrier. . . .

 

[lastbesthope]

As well as the difference between a ship called a Carrier, and a ship with the Carrier trait, the FLeet Carrier trait is something else again.

LBH

 

[Sulfurdown]

No no no!! Fighters cannot be voluntarily moved out of ships to form or replenish wings. They can only be moved to other ships.

Granted that it's not a popular idea, but I never saw what was wrong with allowing flights to be pulled from it's originating ship in campaigns as long as you keep track of how many flights are there and when a Carrier is fielded it has to come with it's full compliment, or if you're fielding the fighters independantly they have to come as a full wing.

I would have said you'd have to track Crew Quality for each flight but when it is fielded from a carrier it takes on it's parent's CQ for that combat, something like the squadroning rules. (yes, I know, that dreaded B word: Bookkeeping.)

For the regenerating issue - the Carriers don't manufacture flights (i.e. empty all your carriers and next turn they all get two new flights), they regenerate them. Which means only if they were involved with the combat, and only if you lost fighters would they be salvagable. Similar to the Fleet Carrier's ability to salvage flights in the middle of combat... but automagically and only after the combat is over.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

No no no!! Fighters cannot be voluntarily moved out of ships to form or replenish wings. They can only be moved to other ships.

Granted that it's not a popular idea

So unpopular, indeed, it was rules out altogether by Matt Sprange on the Rulesmasters forum...

Wulf