Auto CM on a Charge?

[sdavies2720]

I'm going back through the Charging rules and I'm wondering if others are interpreting things the same way I am:

If the defender in a Charge attack decides to stand fast and (counter) attack, the attacker automatically gets a CM if he succeeds with his attack (because the defender is not defending himself).

And similarly, if the defender succeeds with his attack, he automatically gets a CM against the charging opponent because the charger cannot defend.

If so, charges are bloody, bloody, bloody.

Steve

 

[Mikko Leho]

Yes, you are reading it correctly.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Essentially, the charging character declares "You can't parry me, but I can't parry you either".

 

[sdavies2720]

Essentially, the charging character declares "You can't parry me, but I can't parry you either".

On first read through, I didn't pick up on that fact. Pays to have a long weapon here!

I think I'm going to make the following (mostly clarifying) house rules:
* Charge must be declared on attacker's first CA of the round
* Attacker has option of parrying, but if so it must be declared when the charge is declared. Otherwise it's assumed the attacker and mount are both attacking.
* Once the Charge is declared, the defender needs to declare his response:
- Evade (as written, avoids both attacker and mount, uses all remaining CAs for round)
- Attack (longer weapon goes first, uses all remaining CAs for round)
- Parry (but charging weapon is counted as one size larger, two if mounted, and can only parry attacker or mount, not both, uses all CAs)
- Ignore (defender can act normally with all CAs, they just cannot use any melee combat attack or defend against the charge. This is useful if someone wants to run away, cast a spell, etc.)
* Clash occurs on attacker's last CA.

That gives the defender more options (that are less generally useful, but might be the right move in specific circumstances).

I do remember a battle we ran using pre-MRQII rules: The heroes were charged by lizardmen mounted on two-legged dinosaurs. Luckily (for the heroes) there was a hedgerow not too far away -- so it was a race to see whether they could gain cover before being skewered. Under these rules, the heroes would Ignore & use their CAs to run.

Steve

 

[daxos232]

Why does it take all the defender's CAs to evade, parry, or attack with a longer weapon in response to the attacker's charge?

And why does the attacker have to charge with his first CA and the collision take place on his last CA?

 

[Mikko Leho]

I think I'm going to make the following (mostly clarifying) house rules:
* Charge must be declared on attacker's first CA of the round
* Clash occurs on attacker's last CA.

There might be some unwanted consequences with these rulings: characters with low CAs would always charge characters with more CAs as this would force their opponents into using their CA superiority for single response. IMHO it would also complicate the combat procedure needlessly. Original approach of attacker spends CA to charge, defender chooses one response, continue round normally after charge has been resolved works fine for me. IMHO you can add the defender to option to parry but attacker should always be left vulnerable for defender's retaliation.

 

[Mikko Leho]

Why does it take all the defender's CAs to evade, parry, or attack with a longer weapon in response to the attacker's charge?

And why does the attacker have to charge with his first CA and the collision take place on his last CA?

It does not, these are all house rules.

 

[daxos232]

Thanks, I wondered why I hadn't noticed that in the rules before.

 

[sdavies2720]

Hmm. I'm not trying to create a lot of houserules, but mostly clarify what's there.

So, do you play it that on a charge, the defender can use all his CAs for whatever he wants, he's just limited to using one against the Charge (to Evade or Attack)?

And if you allow the attacker to declare the charge later in the round (not on the first CA), basically everyone's going to use all their CAs but one, then charge. Is that what you're seeing?

Or am I still not getting it?

 

[sdavies2720]

Why does it take all the defender's CAs to evade, parry, or attack with a longer weapon in response to the attacker's charge?

And why does the attacker have to charge with his first CA and the collision take place on his last CA?

Well, I was thinking that the charge takes the whole round, and was just looking for a place to resolve it. I guess you could just resolve it all at once, when declared.

But, see my other post: Maybe I just don't get it. Yet.

 

[sdavies2720]

Ok, sorry to be posting these piecemeal, but I should have checked the rules before posting back.

I see why I was having the attacker declare a charge on his first CA/ In the rules it states (the last bullet point under Charging): "The charge only allows a single Combat Action for the Attacker, their mount (if combat capable) and the Defender during that round..."

I thought the cleanest way to do that was to require the charge be declared at the start of the round, and everything else follows.

Steve

 

[PhilHibbs]

I thought the cleanest way to do that was to require the charge be declared at the start of the round, and everything else follows.

So if the defender has won initiative, I guess they would be able to get a missile attack off, or be able to hit/parry someone else, before the person after them on initiative declares their charge and ends their fun. I wonder if that is a typo and is meant to be on that "round" of initiative-order CA declarations? I can understand the charging character using their entire round, but being able to lock down an opponent like that is quite a powerful tactic. Then again, they might just ignore you and take the CM and extra damage bonus on the chin if they are a tough guy with lots of CAs.

 

[HalfOrc HalfBiscuit]

I think you need to look at the rule regarding only allowing one CA in the round in full:

"Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly stopped dead, the charge only allows a single CA for the attacker, their mount (if combat capable) and the Defender during that round, because the speed of the charging creature carries it clear of the engagement zone. The recipient of a charge may not make a further "free" attack as the charger continues past and away, since charging is different from disengaging."

if you put the "one CA" thing in that context, I think it means that attacker and defender only get one CA in respect of each other in terms of melee exchange in that round. Other CAs, it seems to me, might be permissible, depending on context.

To take Phil's example - I certainly wouldn't disallow the defender a CA in response to the charge simply because he had won initiative a spent a CA on something before the charge is declared.

Similarly, if the defender has stood firm and had a slash at the charger as he rides/runs past, while it's clear he can't make another attack on the charger, I would probably allow other actions - such as turning and pursuing the charger so he doesn't have room for another charge.

 

[Deleriad]

There is a slight mis-reading of the rules as written here. What the text actually says

Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly stopped dead, the charge only allows a single Combat Action for the attacker, their mount (if combat capable) and the defender during that round.... The recipient of a charge may not make a further ‘Free’ Attack as the charger continues past and away,

i.e. it is trying to say that if the attacker carries on past the defender then no more actions can be taken by them in relation to each other. Conversely, it doesn't say anything about CAs remaining in general. For example, if you read the example combat in the rulebook there is nothing saying that the charge has "used up" all Thrace's combat actions. The rules are not particularly clear.

I generally hand-wave charges by saying that you start a charge as one CA and usually hit your opponent on your next SR and while you're charging you cannot take any CAs (e.g. parries) until your next SR after the charge. That seems to cover the vast majority of cases where a charge might happen in a regular combat.

Edit: As the orc/biscuit hybrid has just said...

 

[PhilHibbs]

if you put the "one CA" thing in that context, I think it means that attacker and defender only get one CA in respect of each other in terms of melee exchange in that round. Other CAs, it seems to me, might be permissible, depending on context.

Ah, of course, that makes sense now. So if I charge into you and you body-check me, we just duke it out for the rest of the round starting at close or touching range. I guess if I charge into you with a long spear and hit you, we might start off at a greater range.

 

[sdavies2720]

I think you need to look at the rule regarding only allowing one CA in the round in full:

"Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly stopped dead, the charge only allows a single CA for the attacker, their mount (if combat capable) and the Defender during that round, because the speed of the charging creature carries it clear of the engagement zone. The recipient of a charge may not make a further "free" attack as the charger continues past and away, since charging is different from disengaging."

if you put the "one CA" thing in that context, I think it means that attacker and defender only get one CA in respect of each other in terms of melee exchange in that round. Other CAs, it seems to me, might be permissible, depending on context.

To take Phil's example - I certainly wouldn't disallow the defender a CA in response to the charge simply because he had won initiative a spent a CA on something before the charge is declared.

Similarly, if the defender has stood firm and had a slash at the charger as he rides/runs past, while it's clear he can't make another attack on the charger, I would probably allow other actions - such as turning and pursuing the charger so he doesn't have room for another charge.

Well, I don't read the text (even in full) as saying only one action with respect to each other. I agree that you can reasonably read that in, but it's not there to start...

So, those of you who are playing Charge as a single CA, that limits the interaction of the two opponents but doesn't have other effects on CAs: is that working out as balanced?

I haven't had anyone use Charge yet in my game, so I'm working to get this straight.

Steve

 

[sdavies2720]

I think you need to look at the rule regarding only allowing one CA in the round in full:

"Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly stopped dead, the charge only allows a single CA for the attacker, their mount (if combat capable) and the Defender during that round, because the speed of the charging creature carries it clear of the engagement zone. The recipient of a charge may not make a further "free" attack as the charger continues past and away, since charging is different from disengaging."

if you put the "one CA" thing in that context, I think it means that attacker and defender only get one CA in respect of each other in terms of melee exchange in that round. Other CAs, it seems to me, might be permissible, depending on context.

To take Phil's example - I certainly wouldn't disallow the defender a CA in response to the charge simply because he had won initiative a spent a CA on something before the charge is declared.

Similarly, if the defender has stood firm and had a slash at the charger as he rides/runs past, while it's clear he can't make another attack on the charger, I would probably allow other actions - such as turning and pursuing the charger so he doesn't have room for another charge.

I guess I'm trying to get my head inside what the original (playtested) rule says, so I am more comfortable making calls during the game.

What sort of other CAs would you allow? Or maybe more interestingly, what other CAs WOULDN'T you allow? For both the attacker and the defender.

I agree on PhilHibbs' example, I wouldn't prevent the defender from responding to a charge just because he's used a CA already (because he won initiative, for instance).

Steve

 

[PhilHibbs]

What sort of other CAs would you allow? Or maybe more interestingly, what other CAs WOULDN'T you allow? For both the attacker and the defender.

I agree on PhilHibbs' example, I wouldn't prevent the defender from responding to a charge just because he's used a CA already (because he won initiative, for instance).

Steve

I think it's fairly clear - at least in my head - if the charging character rides through/over/past the defender, then they get one action each and after that the charging character is out of range. Simple as that, all other actions that the defender wanted to do are independent of this. If he chose to Evade or Attack, then that's his choice for that turn used up. If he Evades, then I might not allow him to also Parry another attacker. If he attacks the charger, there's no reason why he can't also parry another attacker (unless he is skewered on a lance or knocked down by that point).

 

[sdavies2720]

I think it's fairly clear - at least in my head - if the charging character rides through/over/past the defender, then they get one action each and after that the charging character is out of range. Simple as that, all other actions that the defender wanted to do are independent of this. If he chose to Evade or Attack, then that's his choice for that turn used up. If he Evades, then I might not allow him to also Parry another attacker. If he attacks the charger, there's no reason why he can't also parry another attacker (unless he is skewered on a lance or knocked down by that point).

So, if I'm reading you correctly, for the defender, responding to the charge is just a single CA and they can use their remaining CAs for the round however they want. With the caveat that the Charger is now out of range, and if they Evaded they are now on the ground and have to get up, etc.

How about for the Charger? Can they use their next CA to charge again?

Steve

 

[PhilHibbs]

How about for the Charger? Can they use their next CA to charge again?

The Charging rules don't specify that. If they have another target right in front of them then I might allow it, but if they need to pull up and wheel around to pick another target to charge, that's at least one CA, possibly two. There's a price to pay for getting those two steps of Damage Modifier.