AU: Extinction

doesn't matter what the General or anybody else did when not on screen, you cannot claim a genocidal conflict with so few dead and only military casualties. There just aren't enough deaths to make this anything other than a small scale dispute. Whatever JMS intnded, the casualty figures do not support it.
 
Right Hand of God said:
you cannot claim a genocidal conflict with so few dead and only military casualties.

Civilians time hadn't yet to come.

So just because they decided in the end to surrender before starting wiping civilians they didn't have genocide in mind?

LOL! So if I start war with intention of winning but just before winning I decide to surrender from moments inspiration I didn't have intention of winning at the beginning? Odd logic...

Odd group here. Every single canonical fact must be disputed. If you disagree B5 background so much why play B5 instead of some other scifi genre whose background is more to your liking...
 
tneva82 said:
So just because they decided in the end to surrender before starting wiping civilians they didn't have genocide in mind?


Odd group here. Every single canonical fact must be disputed. If you disagree B5 background so much why play B5 instead of some other scifi genre whose background is more to your liking...

how does their surrender link to genocide in any way shape or form? :?

that is a silly argument "if you don't like everything in the show why watch it"

So if we criticise the show for telling us Jack the Ripper killed women in the wrong end of London: don't watch the show :roll:
If we point out the Roanoke was destroyed before Sheridan talked to it: don't watch the show :roll:

you know you CAN like a program and still be critical of things within it.....
 
I am sorry but why shoud the fact that the show contains errors ruin my enjoyment of it? The facts do not support the arguements of genocide raised inthis thread regardless of how much one might want them too. As for errors in the show, please, there are plenty, that doesn't stop B5 being very good tv

Trekkies, X-File fans, anybody watching a long term tv show is going to find errors in the plot or the script but that doesn't mean we should all switch off. Perfection is something that should be striven for rather than expected. If we were that demanding and intolerant of an error here or there none of us would still be playing ACTA.
 
I agree that you can like a show and not like everything that leads up to it. But it doesn't seem like the argument being made here is 'how could the war have gone in such a way as to make the most sense of canon', the argument being put forth seems to be 'the canon is wrong, the war wasn't genocidal and the reactions too it were all out of line.' That is a bit harder for a lot of fans to take lightly.

We often have little trouble accepting a laser from pulse turret as being a 'cgi error' or a ship having the wrong name (it was destroyed two seasons ago!). Why not view this as the list of dead being maybe the wrong number, or only listing folks who died in a certain field. Look at modern war reporting, civilians and military are often reported seperately. Our own reporting of what happened on September 11th often leaves out the dead at the pentagon and in the field in Penn.

Also, the Minbari may have made it plain to everybody else that this was a war to destroy humanity. If you look at the wars we call genocidal... rarely do they send agents throughout the world looking for every last example of the people in question. Just saying it may not have been either the Minbari or the EA that started calling it a 'genocidal' war, but that may have been the term that stuck. But at least in the culture of our fictional B5 world the humans fought heroically against a foe intent on destroying them all. That may have been masterful PR, or the real deal...but it doesn't much matter, cause that's how they'll be writing their history books.

Ripple
 
Ripple said:
Why not view this as the list of dead being maybe the wrong number, or only listing folks who died in a certain field. Ripple

that is what we're saying, as I said I first thought "surely they meant 250,000,000 not 250,000"

not agreed on civilian figures not being counted, most of WW2's dead were civilians
 
Please stop the debate whether the Minbari were intent on genocide or not. The matter is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and certainly not what I had in mind when I started the thread.

For the purposes of this discussion, here are the relevant facts relating to the Earth-Minbari War

1) The Minbari may have wanted every human dead at the start of the war, but they lost their taste when they saw how the humans were willing to fight to the last man (witness Io's Valiant Seven).

2) The casualties to EarthForce numbered over a billion, not 250,000. This is a much more realistic figure given the scale of the conflict.

3) The Minbari would have occupied Earth and satellite colonies after they orbitally bombarded the major population centers to pacify the population.

4) The remnants of the human colonists on the occupied worlds would form resistance groups because that is the most likely scenario.

5) Remnants of EarthForce and civilian shipping move to the Rim to hide from the Minbari after the fall of Mars. The shifting hyperspace tides make this a good choice, as even the accurate jump engines of the Minbari would have a difficult time being accurate.
 
Sorry to jump in Darzoni, just wanted to get the discussion away from, character X said this, character Y said that. It seemed to be missing the relevant point, which was that we just don't have enough information to debate the intent of the war accurately.

I have a question on the point of your Minbari occupation. What are they hoping to get out of the devestated human worlds? The initial impetus for the war is revenge, what happens after that? Are they using them as some kind of colony base to strip resources? It would help make it clearer what the 'resistance' would have to fight, and what information they might be able to get out to the fleet in exile.

If the goal is just containment, you might end up with very few Minbari ever seeing a human face to face. They'd stay in orbit primarily.

Just wondering.

Ripple
 
Ripple said:
If the goal is just containment, you might end up with very few Minbari ever seeing a human face to face. They'd stay in orbit primarily.

Containment is the initial goal. Given how horrifically effective Minbari ships are against the human ships of the era, it would not take many ships to blockade earth space. And since there are few space yards and technical enterprises left to build new ships (let alone new designs), it is likely that any human resistance will use small civlian ships retrofitted with make-shift weaponry.

As Minbari attitudes soften, reformation of the "bloodthirsty human nature" may become a priority. At this point, resistance efforts will likely infiltrate and steal Minbari technology, slapping it onto old beater hulls. This likely has various levels of success given that humans of the era don't really understand the principles and mechanics of Minbari tech.

I cannot see the Minbari enslaving humans in any scenario.
 
Actually, an amendment to those last thoughts.

Since the humans are still required by the Vorlon Plan, the Vorlons likely manipulate the Minbari into absorbing the remains of the human colonies into the Protectorate, and quietly use their agents to steer humans towards cooperation and recovery.

Thus we still have something akin to the Babylon Project created.

Except now instead of the Clark Regime, we have the Shadow-influenced EarthForce remnants in addition to Centauri aggression.
 
The Minbari Federation, regretting the near genocide of humanity during the Earth-Minbari War, created the Babylon Project with the help of the other galactic nations. As a gesture of faith and goodwill, the construction of the Babylon stations was entrusted to the humans as their first steps towards independence after the War.

After the first four Babylon stations suffered bizzare and inexplicable malfuctions, the last of the Babylon stations, Babylon 5, was built in orbit around Epsilon Eridani.

(Yes, I suck at writing poetic introductions...)
 
emperorpenguin said:
how are you getting around the time paradox, that if Sinclair was killed there was no Valen, therefore the Minbari lost the last war?

Perhaps he wasn't killed, but the Grey Council simply could not believe that Sinclair had the soul of Valen (or realized that their greatest leader was in fact a human), and went through with the plans to occupy human territory anyway.

"For their own safety." or some malarky like that.

I dunno. Any suggestions?
 
or you could say he was killed and the Shadows came out of the last war much stronger than they really did (like in the alternate future they glimpsed?)
these stronger shadows feel more bold and able to "help" the EA get back at the Vorlons/Minbari
 
You could really shift with the alternate history.

Valen is a Minbari not born of Minbari. Nothing says it has to be a human in your vision of events. As to the Vorlon plan with Humans, would another race they have interfered with suffice? e.g. the Narn.

So what if: The Minbari complete their genocide and depopulate Earth, feeling justified, they allow the rest of humanity to survive. Perhaps the surviving human colonies would have appealed to the League for protection, and joined as members.

The Abbai, agahst at the genocide committed against the humans who supported them during the Dilgar invasion they proposed the 'Babylon Project' and receive extensive support from the League. A human design for the station is accepted and construction begins.

Babylon-4 was the space station hauled back in time, the project just needs building near Epsilon Eridani. As to who would be on the station at the time....
 
Those are both excellent suggestions, and I'm trying to figure out a way to include both. Maybe some sort of branching option. HMM.

Unfortunately, typing with a wrist brace is difficult, so lengthy posts aren't an option at the moment.
 
So there's two ways to go about it, I suppose.

There's same-but-different. Then there's the deep end.

For giggles, we'll go with the deep end. Prepare to dive.

"The Vorlon's plan was undone in the end by the death of one man: Jeffery Sinclair. Without him, without Babylon 4, the last Shadow War ended badly for the forces of Order. And the Shadows emerged stronger than they would have.

"The Earth-Minbari War began with a misunderstanding. In a moment of panic, the commander of an EarthForce expedition shot and crippled the Grey Sharlin, killing Dukhat. The enraged Minbari began a war of genocide, one which the Earth Alliance couldn't win. The end came after two years of battles, with the Battle of the Line, at which Earth itself was beseiged for six hours by Minbari forces. The line did not hold...

"The Minbari crushed the Earth Alliance, making sure the humans understood the depth of their mistake. The purge began with Mars, where the remnants of EarthForce made one final stand before fleeing to the Rim with as many civilian survivors as they could muster. As of 2245, there were no known human colonies left. To the few survivors of the genocide, refuge was found in the Abbai Matriarchy.

"The first waypoint on the EarthForce's exodus out to the Rim was Za'ha'dum, where the waking Shadows quietly observed the embittered humans, and saw only a tool to be used against the Vorlons. They sent the Drakh to the humans, who sympathized with them and spoke words of friendship. 'We too have suffered at the hands of the Minbari', said the Drakh, "They razed our worlds to the ground as they did yours, leaving us too a refugee people.' And so the claws of the Shadows gained a foothold in the remains of humanity. The dark and terrible fruit would ripen in mere decades..."
 
An outline, if you will. And I think I'm going to rename it to something other than Extinction. Suggestions are welcome.

Scenario 1: The Fall of Mars
EarthForce remnants from the Battle of the Line fight a battle one month later to ensure the retreat of civilian and medical ships to the Rim. Takes place around Mars orbit.

Scenario 2: All Alone In The Night
A battle in hyperspace between Earthforce remnants and Minbari forces as Earthforce flees to the Rim.

Scenario 3: A Question of Honor
League forces, lead by the Abbai and Drazi, attempt to protect Earth Alliance refugees as the Minbari pursue them into League space.

Scenario 4: Tower of Babel
Rogue Minbari forces attempt to destroy the Babylon Diplomatic Station.

Scenario 5: Careful What You Wish For...
At the request of Londo Mollari, the Shadows strike a Narn shipyard to instigate a war between the Regime and the Republic.

Common Scenario A: Crossfire
A third party is caught in the crossfire of a battle between two other empires.
 
Common Scenario B: Footprints of the Titans
In the incessant search for new territories and technology, one of the younger races has woken something old and terrible up, and now fights to escape its hunger...
(I'm actually a fan of the Ghost Ship scenario from Signs and Portents, and this scenario is supposed to be a lot like that...)

Common Scenario C: Come Into My Parlor...
A small convoy going through the places between planets is ambushed by the Shadows.

Scenario 6: Cry My Tears
A battle takes place between the League of Non-Aligned Worlds, the Narn Regime, and the Centauri Republic in what was supposed to be neutral territory: Bablyon 5. At the heart of the dispute is the status of Narn refugees from the War of Retribution. The Centauri want them tried as war criminals or held as prisoners of war. The Narn wish to escape into League space, pleading for asylum. The League wishes to disarm the conflict before it damages the diplomatic station.
 
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