AU: Extinction
- Thread starter Darzoni
- Start date
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
hiffano said:
:roll:
get off the stage!emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Darzoni said:
hey we distrust authority we vote for too! :wink:
tneva82 said:
There are a couple other points to consider from the ItB book, if you've read it. (It's probably not "canon", but... *shrug*)
First (and this one actually is in the movie too): Earth had already heard of the Minbari before asking Londo about them. Earlier parts of that conversation imply that this information came from League worlds.
Second: When the Minbari did speak with other species during the war, they didn't exactly hide what their intention was. In the book, when the minbari showed up after Sheridan's failed meeting with Lennon, they told G'Kar to shut up or they would attack his world next. (I don't remember the exact wording - I'm at work right now. But that was the basic idea.)
Third (this part is speculation, not even listed in the book): If Earth was "taking advantage of the goodwill of League worlds", as stated in the interview with Londo, wouldn't they probably ask the League for help AT LEAST talking to the minbari? At which point, the Minbari would probably tell them the same thing they told G'Kar. Of course, that's assuming they respond at all... But this could have been done before Sheridan destroyed the Black Star.
emperorpenguin said:
No evidence? You think Centauri's have been keeping blind eye on Minbari's?
Note Centauri's know lot more about Minbari's than humans did. They feared them and for good reason. Minbari's were the one race Centauri's didn't dare to oppose even at their height. You think they did that if they didn't KNOW quite a few things?
As Londo pointed out he has been fond of humans so why it's stretch to imagine he could point out why Minbari left civilians behind. I'm sure it mystified Earth central when it first time happened so they could easily ASK from Londo if he knew "why?" and since Centauri's have likely kept close eye on them they could have picked up thing or two from their culture...
kalain76 said:
Yes. They knew of Minbari. Probably didn't know all that much but little bit(more likely than Minbari knew about Humans at the start of war btw. Probably only advantage they had and the reason why war lasted so long as it did...).
Heh why would they? Nobody in the galaxy has power to stop them(well barring shadows and Vorlons but they weren't going to get involved...Shadows weren't up yet and Vorlons knew what was going to happen anyway) and nobody is stupid enough to get into their way anyway :lol:
Likely got his attention
Once they realised they were getting annihilated they probably "screamed" for help to anybody willing to listen and since humans helped league against dilgars odds are good yes that requests for ANY kind of help went there.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
tneva82 said:
you seem to think that just because the Centauri had diplomatic contact with the Minbari in the past (and no longer at this point remember) that that means they understand a) Minbari psyche b) Minbari war plans and c) are able to interpret Minbari NOT killing millions of humans as a war of genocide! :shock:
How exactly could Londo Mollari of all people point out that ignoring civilians is evidence of genocide?
THE only comparable incidence in the later AOG backstory was the Garmak and the Centauri discovered their homeworld devoid of life, nothing about ignoring civilians.
If anything the Centauri would have told Earth "hey at least they're NOT wiping out your colonies like they did with the Garmak"
There is absolutely no evidence for a Minbari genocide vs Earth beyond the general with Lefcourt at the briefing in "ITB". As repeatedly pointed out a casualty rate of 250,000 over two years during a planetary draft (ie billions called up) is nothing
captainsmirk
Mongoose
Well the war may have initially been intended to be such a genocide (as Delenn's comments suggest) but was likely rapidly scaled down on its intended objective once they had time to cool down. Any later comments on that subject are quite probably EA propaganda...
However the given casualty figure is obviously wrong. Not that it should be anywhere near a genocidal level, but 250'000 likely wouldn't have made a very big dent in Earthforce's prewar strength even before we factor in the wartime draft. Unless the EA had a tiny fleet of capital ships then that figure wouldn't cover the supposed loss of most of their fleet.
Admittedly B5 is a bit ambiguous on fleet sizes. In ItB they gather a fleet of hundreds of ships to defend Earth, yet in Endgame just 36 Omega's are deemed enough against a large multi-racial fleet. All makes it very difficult to determine sizes (although on a rational level I think that the sizes of the fleets engaged in the E-M War shown in ItB are probably unrealistically big)...
Nick
However the given casualty figure is obviously wrong. Not that it should be anywhere near a genocidal level, but 250'000 likely wouldn't have made a very big dent in Earthforce's prewar strength even before we factor in the wartime draft. Unless the EA had a tiny fleet of capital ships then that figure wouldn't cover the supposed loss of most of their fleet.
Admittedly B5 is a bit ambiguous on fleet sizes. In ItB they gather a fleet of hundreds of ships to defend Earth, yet in Endgame just 36 Omega's are deemed enough against a large multi-racial fleet. All makes it very difficult to determine sizes (although on a rational level I think that the sizes of the fleets engaged in the E-M War shown in ItB are probably unrealistically big)...
Nick
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
very ambiguous indeed, 7 G'Quans are considered a large chunk of the Narn fleet in "The Long Twilight Struggle"
This sounds very interesting
I don't really know anything, but 250,000 casualties sounds like they destroyed space ships and infrastructure reguired to build them on their way to earth. That meaning planetary bombardments, no occupation. Its true that in the series they show a close combat skene... dunno That's just what the casualty numbers makes me think. Also, since humans don't have industrial replicators or such, building a spaceworthy ship worth of mentioning must require something that takes years to build and just a second for minbari beam to slice
Second. I dont really understand what motive minbars would ever have to occupy earth? What do they get out of it? Surely they must have enough natural resources? I can believe that they would want humans for slave labour? What then? Why not bombard the whole planet until its unhabitable (would take like... let me think... 10 minutes from a race that advanced.), or until minbars feel that they have punished humans enough?
I don't really know anything, but 250,000 casualties sounds like they destroyed space ships and infrastructure reguired to build them on their way to earth. That meaning planetary bombardments, no occupation. Its true that in the series they show a close combat skene... dunno
That's just what the casualty numbers makes me think. Also, since humans don't have industrial replicators or such, building a spaceworthy ship worth of mentioning must require something that takes years to build and just a second for minbari beam to sliceSecond. I dont really understand what motive minbars would ever have to occupy earth? What do they get out of it? Surely they must have enough natural resources? I can believe that they would want humans for slave labour? What then? Why not bombard the whole planet until its unhabitable (would take like... let me think... 10 minutes from a race that advanced.), or until minbars feel that they have punished humans enough?
emperorpenguin said:
Who knows how good they had in the past...Also remember Centauri's feared them. They very likely had witnessed fury of Minbari's before...Unlikely Humans were first race ever Minbari's got pissed off at.
So simply pointing out what they have learned from them in the past.
Past experience? You seem to think Earth-Minbari war is first war ever Minbari fought...I can assure you it was not and if it was not Centauri's were likely paying close attention to what was going on(what with Minbari's being race everybody's carefull with...So if they are up to something might just as well watch carefully and learn what you can...)
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
The Minbari didn't wipe out anyone else beyond the Garmak and were isolationist, not sharing all their info with the Centauri.
There realy is nothing to go on other than one general's amazingly unscientific say-so that would lead the EA to believe the Minbari were bent on genocide
There realy is nothing to go on other than one general's amazingly unscientific say-so that would lead the EA to believe the Minbari were bent on genocide
Anthallas said:
Precisely. Close combat scene could simply be hit&run attack against command posts to learn location of next target(remember: Minbari knew pretty much nothing of humans. This means: Not one bit about LOCATION of target. This means some serious scouting needed...Location of Earth colonies/military outposts were something Minbari's were very interested in getting their hands on and first thing Earth colony/outpost commander were destroying once they were attacked).
For one they would draw up lots of their military there to be destroyed. Also Earth is biggest concentration of population so genocide would be good place to start there...Wipe out Earth, wipe out most of humans.
They weren't looking to occupy. They were looking at destroying remnants of fleet and then wipe out Earth and then start sweeping back for colonies left behind.
They weren't looking for live humans. Only dead ones.
Likely what they had in mind...It's just that they stopped before a) fleet was completely annihilated b) they could commence bombardment.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
I'm assuming a few psople here have read this work of B5 alternate universe fan fiction?
http://www.b5-dark-mirror.demon.co.uk/
LBH
http://www.b5-dark-mirror.demon.co.uk/
LBH
I seem to remember an Earth Force General telling a large group of officers that the Minbari were only hitting military targets. He continued by telling them that they had learned the Minbari had a cast system and theorized that they were fighting according to that system (First wiping out the military, then swinging back around). That combined with Londo's warning that there wouldn't be a human alive if they opposed the Minbari. I don't know about you, but that would definately make me think my species was going to be completely wiped out.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Did Londo say such a thing? I don't recall?
The EarthForce General in question sure put a lot together from so little info, maybe he's a descendent of someone who said "Invade iraq they have WMDs!"
Seriously though, if you were fighting a war and went to the UN with "proof of genocide" being "they haven't killed any civilians".......well....
It doesn't make sense but neither do many of the things in B5. We know JMS wanted to portray it is a war of genocide, just I think he really should have made it a war of genocide in that case. Not 250,000 dead and few civilians
The EarthForce General in question sure put a lot together from so little info, maybe he's a descendent of someone who said "Invade iraq they have WMDs!"
Seriously though, if you were fighting a war and went to the UN with "proof of genocide" being "they haven't killed any civilians".......well....
It doesn't make sense but neither do many of the things in B5. We know JMS wanted to portray it is a war of genocide, just I think he really should have made it a war of genocide in that case. Not 250,000 dead and few civilians
emperorpenguin said:
We didn't SEE what he did and what info he received during whole war...It was only one movie! Not chronicle of everybody's life during that war!
You seem to assume that just because something didn't happen on screen it didn't happen. So I suppose that general did nothing while he wasn't on screen.
