Athletics starting at 0

[RadioFreeWABA]

Given that a player can just opt for a straight up characteristic check, one needs to improve Athletics twice before there is any advantage. That feels a little harsh.

Has anyone tried the Athletics skill starting at 0 instead of -3?

 

[Vormaerin]

Do you have a citation for the rule that they can just ignore the skill part of a skill check? There's a lot of Characteristic checks and there's a lot of Skill checks. There's nothing I am aware of that says that you can just decide that you are rolling a stat check when its a skill check.

The comment that anything you can do with Strength alone you can also add your Athletics skill to does not mean that the reverse is true and anything you need Athletics for you can just sub a Str check. If you get asked to lift a heavy object that requires a STR check, you can add your Athletics (STR) to that. But just having an END score doesn't mean you are a long distance swimmer. That's specifically an Athletics (END) test. An untrained person will take the -3 to their END to try to swim a long distance with no knowledge of swimming technique.

 

[CordwainerFish]

Similar to how Athletics (DEX) serves in place of CT's Zero-G skill - you need the skill, you can't just roll DEX.

(Per MgT2 2016, at least. My copy is at hand and I'm too lazy to check 2022.)

 

[Condottiere]

Athletics allows you to efficiently apply that strength, dexterity, and endurance.

Though, the opportunity to acquire that skill could be during your secondary school (terms), newspaper route, or free family farmhand.

 

[alex_greene]

You can pick Athletics 0 right at the start of chargen. The careers of Army, Drifter, Marine, Navy, Prisoner, and Rogue thrust Athletics 0 upon you in basic training if you join those careers as your first career choice - which means if you're drafted and are forced into one of the military Services, you'll have Athletics 0 handed to you free at some point.
Likewise, if your character winds up a Drifter, Prisoner, or Rogue at the start of their careers, you get Athletics 0 for free.
Page 55 of the CRB:-
The Athletics skill may be learned or improved but does not use EDU. Instead, use the appropriate physical characteristics (STR, DEX or END). Any physical characteristic can be used to gain Athletics 0.
I could have sworn that Athletics was an exception to the untrained penalty rule, but I might have been looking at the World of Darkness system. In any case, I recommend getting Athletics 0 right off the bat anyway, whether your character is going to be a sleek superagent type or a celebrity pastry chef.

 

[Vormaerin]

Gotta have those freakishly strong fingers as a pastry chef.

 

[RadioFreeWABA]

The skill or characteristic check I got from (Core Rule book, June 2023):

pg58 When trying to endure a long trek through the desert, a Traveller would use their END Dice Modifier

pg65. The Traveller is a trained athlete and is physically fit. The Athletics skill effectively augments a Traveller’s physical characteristics; whatever you
can do with Strength alone you can also add your Athletics (strength) DM
Athletics (Endurance): Long distance running, hiking
Athletics (Strength): Feats of strength, weight-lifting

I interpret those to mean a character can use a characteristic for physical activity not covered by existing skills OR make an Athletics (thing) check. I might be interpreting that incorrectly.

For physical tasks that don't have a specific skill, we have always rolled against appropriate characteristic. Zero-G is specifically called out in the description of Athletics, so that is the skill that would be used for that; a straight characteristic check would not be allowed. Perhaps we are liberal with our use of characteristic checks.

I had forgot that Athletics is one of the background skills. That does help lessen my "need the skill twice before it is valuable" issue since you can guarantee the first rank. It would be an indication that the character has a focus on physical fitness and health; nice background colouring there. And, as per the swim example above, having Athletics 0 could explain why the character who grew up in a desert world has the ability to swim ("well, there was a pool at the starport and I thought I would try it out.")

It still kind-a feels like Athletics 0 is not as useful as other skills at 0. But that could just be a MTU thing.

 

[Bill Sheil]

I had forgot that Athletics is one of the background skills. That does help lessen my "need the skill twice before it is valuable" issue since you can guarantee the first rank.

It kinda reads that you are misinterpreting the method for gaining skills here. When you get a normal skill gain (not numbered) you can automatically start at level one - or add one to your existing level. You do not have to sink a point a point into getting level zero first. Only explicitly acquiring Skill-0, generally through background or basic training, puts you on level zero (and does not accumulate).

Also, if you are getting an actual Athletics skill later from a skill table roll then the background Athletics-0 is actually wasted as the rolled skill (level 1) overrides it and grants implicit level zero in all sub-skills.

 

[RadioFreeWABA]

It kinda reads that you are misinterpreting the method for gaining skills here. When you get a normal skill gain (not numbered) you can automatically start at level one - or add one to your existing level.

OMG - how many times have I read character creation and missed that every time?

So, umm, this thread is now useless.

Thanks for spotting my mistake.

 

[Vormaerin]

The skill or characteristic check I got from (Core Rule book, June 2023):


I interpret those to mean a character can use a characteristic for physical activity not covered by existing skills OR make an Athletics (thing) check. I might be interpreting that incorrectly.

As I said, some things are Characteristic checks. That's usually things where no particular skill is involved. Lifting a heavy object, walking a long way, etc. Those things you can add your athletics even though it calls for a Characteristic check.

But lots of things are actual skills: Zero G maneuvering, swimming, parkour style running, rock climbing, mitigating falls etc.

Obviously, every task check is up to the referee to decide the parameters, but the intention is that Athletics is required for any sort of skill based activity and straight characteristic checks are for things like resisting getting sick, how long before you are fatigued, etc.

 

[Condottiere]

Athletics is probably one of those skilled that need to be constantly exercised, in order to retain the benefits.

 

[MonsterX]

Any sport obviously falls under Athletics. But then we need to classify them as DEX, STR, END, which is actually pretty difficult. Sports like football or ice hockey don't actually fit into one form of athletics skill; it depends on the precise thing you are doing. Most sports incorporate more than one characteristic. Is cross country skiing DEX? If you are taking a tricky downhill it is, but if you are sufficiently skilled to stay under control in the terrain you are skiing and you are skiing far, it becomes more about END. To be really good a particular sport like that you'd need more than one category of Athletics skill. Maybe that's ok: gold medal skiers maybe should have DEX and END, and it is ok if linebackers have higher Athletics STR, while quarterbacks have higher Athletics DEX, for example, but probably professional level players will have at least some skill in all categories.

 

[Saladman]

1e had the following language in the skills chapter:

The Athletics skill effectively augments a character’s physical characteristics: there is never an untrained penalty for not having the Athletics skill, you just use your Strength, Dexterity or Endurance DM as normal. Likewise, where a situation might call for a Strength, Dexterity or Endurance check you can always use the appropriate Athletics speciality to boost your roll.

I just carried that forward without ever stopping to check whether it was still the current RAW, but it's served me well.

The downside is that Athletics 0 from basic training does nothing for you. But that's easily fixed by bumping it to Athletics 1 instead. It's not such a powerful or desirable skill that another rank on top of that will break anything.

Any sport obviously falls under Athletics. But then we need to classify them as DEX, STR, END, which is actually pretty difficult.

I was once kicking around getting away from the Dex, Str, End split entirely, while still keeping only three skills. I recall I was thinking of Sportsball (any kind, soccer to baseball to rugby, and more practically, also throwing grenades), Track and Field (running, jumping, parkour, swimming), and Weights (feats of strength and endurance, heavy gravity). Anything else that came up just shoehorn into the closest approximation and don't worry about it, as compared to multiplying types of Athletics skills for players to cover.

I was never wholly satisfied with the idea, plus I realized I'd have been houseruling a skill nobody really had or cared about at the time. But I also feel like there's something to the idea. Maybe someone can use it, or take it another direction I'm not seeing.

 

[TrippyHippy]

It is worth noting that, in the current rules, any Zero-G movement is covered by the Athletics skill. It is a very worthwhile thing to get a Level-0 skill in it.

 

[Vormaerin]

I just got rid of the subskills. I just have Athletics. I'm not running the sort of campaign where it matters if you are into track & field or were a weightlifter.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I just got rid of the subskills. I just have Athletics. I'm not running the sort of campaign where it matters if you are into track & field or were a weightlifter.

This is indeed something we have looked at for a future Core Rulebook Update - no decision made as yet, but it is at least on the table.

 

[MonsterX]

There are good arguments for going with just making it a general skill with no specialties. Obviously, this does some damage to realism in that technique is important and time consuming to learn. But a lot of sport specific variation in talent can be reflecting in the stat modifiers anyways - a weightlifter will have high STR, a marathon runner high END.

 

[Condottiere]

Athletics is a conscientious choice, not really some random skill.

Make it cheaper and easier to gain levels, or subskills.

 

[chibiko]

Just riffing here, but I suppose one possibility is for Athletics 0 to remove any negative DMs resulting from low characteristic scores - the training in technique overcoming the physical deficit, as it were.

 

[Vormaerin]

If the 1e rule that unskilled Athletics was a straight characteristic was supposed to be carried forward, the easier way would be to just give everyone Athletics 0 automatically instead of having a special rule that says Athletics 0 does nothing or is otherwise has some special unique snowflake mechanic.

Personally, I think that unskilled Athletics should be a thing. Climbing, Swimming, throwing, Zero G, and High G maneuvering, and other activities are things that are actual skills that should be distinguished from raw stats.