Army of Light - no more League? Playtest rules questions.

[Hindsight]

The omelette reference was sound. If balance is needed, something has to go. I can't say that I know the missing link to League balance, but yes, maybe having to drop one or two ships from their arsenal, or put a restriction on swarm fleets.

Hell maybe the new FAP resolves the major issues. Dumping it, just doesn't seem fair, the league is one of those iconic sets of ships, and telling someone they can't field them anymore...

Well, for us. We'll just use it anyway, and ignore these rule updates, and make it legal as a house rule. Sometimes the development team is just wrong, and when it comes to invalidating someones force, that just isn't something I can get behind. I have a lot of league playing friends, and they can field the league against me any day of the week.

 

[silashand]

Well, for us. We'll just use it anyway, and ignore these rule updates, and make it legal as a house rule. Sometimes the development team is just wrong, and when it comes to invalidating someones force, that just isn't something I can get behind.

Same here. If push comes to shove and they try to force the AoL on us, I know I for one will simply ignore it and play the current League. This new AoL idea is IMO just dumb, but ah well. Nothing I can do if they've already made up their minds I guess.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Triggy]

silashand - you keep making throwaway comments about "our" minds already being made up. I ask you, where's the evidence for that? Every post I make with a suggestion keeps the League and you still seem to think it's disappearing...

 

[Tion]

Could make it interesting by requiring the represented league races to squadron their ships by race :wink:

 

[Hindsight]

silashand - you keep making throwaway comments about "our" minds already being made up. I ask you, where's the evidence for that? Every post I make with a suggestion keeps the League and you still seem to think it's disappearing...

I can only speak for myself, Triggy, but the League is still gone.

Because of this, combined League fleets are no longer a legal force. However, players looking to create a fleet comprising several races may instead use the Army of Light.

So we stated our concerns, and the updated list still has the statement that the League is still no longer a legal force. What are we to take away from that?

For the record, I don't even play league, I just really strongly believe that if someone bought a bunch of models to play a certain fleet, that list should not be removed as that customer made a commitment, and honored their end by providing currency for the models, and they now just want Mongoose to keep their end of that contract, by balancing the League as necessary, to resolve any outstanding issues.

Your personal support through this process of public play testing has been greatly appreciated on my end, and I have heard your name come up in our private circle, and always favorably. I just hope that Mr. Sprange hasn't made up his mind, as I'd hate to see our local league players feel like they bought those ships for nothing.

We'll let them use the league, whether it is legal or not, as a house rule. I'd just much rather there be a balanced list, a legal list, that makes everyone happy.

 

[silashand]

silashand - you keep making throwaway comments about "our" minds already being made up. I ask you, where's the evidence for that? Every post I make with a suggestion keeps the League and you still seem to think it's disappearing...

And yet it is still missing from both the original and current playtest documents and the only change from 1.0 to 1.1 was a revised version of the AoL. I see little evidence that it may make a return one way or another. If it does, great. However, even if it does it will undoubtedly be with "modifications" that IMO don't need to be there since of those people with the authority to make these changes, none of them have commented that the League will stay as it is. That's what I mean about minds being made up already. You've (as in the plural you) already decided it needs to change and thus all suggestions on potentially keeping it have revolved around the idea that it's mysteriously broken somehow, a "fact" which I and some others simply don't see since there is no actual evidence of it. In short it seems like the hidden agenda is to delete/change the league regardless. Sorry if that seems negative, but it's my perception based on the comments so far.

I agree with Hindsight that your personal support of public playtesting has been great and I appreciate the opportunity to provide input. I just don't see the value in doing so with regard to an issue that apparently is not fully on the table is all.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Triggy]

Fair enough on your opinions

I will stress it's not a hidden agendum though. Where I'm coming from is not that the League is "broken" but more from a point of view of "it's more powerful than it should be". The individual fleets are balanced (near enough anyway) and I don't see many people disputing that. It's these effectively free upgrades, no matter how small they are, that get me. Combine that with in particular Vree ships, Drazi fleets, the Gaim and in the future the Hyach and you have several extremes of playing style that can be combined to give entirely different uses for some ships.

At the end of the day, I like the principle of the League but as an ad hoc military force, not an organised political entity. This means a large variety of different ships and races with lower standards of organisation/generalmanship than normal to my mind and preferably set around the Dilgar War as that's the only real time they came together and fought together.

 

[Ripple]

Okay,

couple of things

First, any fixed list is going to be a long term issues as each new ship comes out. One of the big reasons I don't like the AoL or the proposed fixed list earlier.

Second, the Abbai/Xixx lists that triggy fears so much. What do you target, I would kill the Xixx, why because its a skimish point that can effect you right now, where as the Abbai can't. How would this be different from pure abbai with a Brivioki? Long range fire there too....

How does it really differ from a normal abbai fleet... the fear I'm being told is the abbai will get close while you deal with something else. If it wasn't the something else it would be another abbai, and the abbai your afraid of now would still be getting close. What's changed is one long range shot.

If the abbai are using a Lakara or better. it might not even be one extra depending on starting ranges. In return the Abbai have put ships out there that are far easier to kill and give up VPs. If this isn't balanced for the Abbai it isn't balanced for the Centauri either... no glass canon ships allowed. Both classes of ships are balanced... they are still balanced together... one has long range, but is easy to kill... on is tough to kill but has to get close, in either case they don't allow the OTHER abbai ships to do something they couldn't before.

The Gaim example is more valid... but as has been stated, almost all the concerns are based of fighters and scouts. Two fold answer to that is that no race should have no scouts... and I would be shocked if they stayed that way indefinately as Mongoose needs product to sell... and they aren't winning any big contests now. Maybe they should be, but they aren't.

No race should have no answers to fighters either, that leads to the no fun games. "Oh, you brought carriers... let me put away my Drazi, let's just get a beer.' Is that really what your aiming for?

No race should have no answer to stealth... same speech, different opposing race...

Fighters and scouts have become basic parts of stealth management, along with AoE to an extent. You need at least some access to these to make it balanced... as it has to be balanced assuming you can put the package together. Not saying all... but consistently enough to try and keep it in play long enough to gain an advantage when before it's all lost.

Just having something that forces your opponent to change tactics is not unbalanced... having something where his changing tactics won't help is. EA brings a stack of Novas and Artemis to a fight... I fight it one way... he brings Olympus and Sag fleet I fight another way... he brings the mix with a hyperion another. We don't claim these are all unbalanced because the capability of each fleet is very different. Variety does not mean lack of balance, ten Sags with guns, range, survivability and the ability to effectively ignore their own slow loading was. You can balance ships... not races.

Ripple

 

[Everyman]

While I suspect that there may be someone out there that likes the whole Army of Light concept, we have generally found that it is too cumbersome with having to confirm a desired ship is in the list.

Also, the list itself does not really make any sense at all since the flavor text indicates it was created to depict to the combined EA/League fleet that engaged in the Dilgar War and that the old League fleets were not something that occured. However, this listing has no bearing on the actual fleets used in the Dilgar conflict. There was no ISA. and the Centauri, Gaim and Pak'ma'ra were not part of the allied fleets.

Therefore, using the old rules (or perhaps a modification of them) would be more correct in forming up fleets such as the combined Brakiri, Abbai and Drazi fleets that did operate together early on in that conflict.

I think that replacing a combined league fleet with this is a foolish mistake as it does not really address any issues and creates a number of others while adding an additional (and unneeded) level of complexity to fleet selection. Simply adding some restrictions to the old League fleets would probably have been more than acceptable if people thought that they were broken, but have not had any issues with them in games.

 

[Triggy]

Everyman - I agree with a majority of what you're saying. In particular, the AoL is meant to represent the 2259-2261 fleet that Sheridan and Delenn led not the Dilgar War fleet. It's a fluffy and meant to be a fun fleet more than a replacement for the League.

I also agree (as I've posted many times already) that the League should stay but with a bit more of a focus on what was available for the Dilgar War (nothing super-modern like the Brivoki, Firehawk, etc.) and incentives to pick a genuine mixed fleet rather than one fleet with an allied ship - after all it is a League fleet not a "can I borrow your ship" fleet

 

[Ripple]

On the Army of Light list...

What is the basis of the fleets not seen in the show have specific ship selections, and in most cases only one?

I want to be a bit more clear I'm not against army of light, I think that should be a cool list in and of itself, allowing Narn, EA and League to work together. Just wondering on specific ships choices. Is AoL just the pre ISA period... or include the Drahk War? Forget who all showed up to save the Earth.

Narn - do we see a T'Loth at any of the AoL battles?
EA - similar question with the Olympus/Nova?
Abbai - no visible ship, but you chose the Bimith. I love the model but why just this one. The Lakara is their newest hull at the time, the Tiraca certainly seems most common.
Brakiri - Avioki certainly, any particular reason nothing else.
Drazi - Sunhawk certainly, I would like the Warbird/Strikehawk as they are show working with if not at the big fights...
Gaim - the diplomat is reluctant, do we have evidence they actually supplied ships?
Pak - was saved by but did they show up other than that?
Vree - yup... spinners... basiclly xill hulls and xorr hulls.
Hyach - down the road but do we have any indication they supplied ships?
Cascor - same...
Ipsha - we see one guarding B5 don't we... or is it just the one appearance...

Just wondering if we're using general league signing to indicate ships or if they have to have talked about deploying at least. Relevant to the inclusion of a number of races...

Any idea on allies in general? Similar issue with ISA and Centauri.

Ripple

 

[captainsmirk]

Gaim - the diplomat is reluctant, do we have evidence they actually supplied ships?

Well on this one the Gaim's reluctance was based on the fact that they couldn't see any possible chance of winning. They asked Sheridan to prove that he had equal power to the Shadows, so he brought in the Vorlon's.

He supplied what the Gaim asked for so one would possibly assume (unless they decided to back-track) that they did supply ships...

And thus became one of the other unseen but presumably present League fleets in the AoL.


Nick

 

[Triggy]

Good call on the Ipsha War Globe

As for why those ships for the Abbai and Gaim - we didn't pick them Matt did but fundamentally we agreed that they still needed one ship each and he made a call on them. IMO they're not bad choices but so long as they're usable it doesn't really matter.

The AoL fleet is there to represent the years 2259-2261 (pre-ISA). I also agree that the Centauri need to be dropped and the Drazi need their Sky Serpent and Warbird/Strikehawk.

 

[Hindsight]

How do you take a White Star in the Army of Light?

It is from a fleet that does not exist, so does it count as taking a ship from the ISA fleet, when the ISA had not formed yet? Is it a canon Army of Light craft? The whole thing about "you can only take one ship for every fleet you take from" thing confuses the crap out of me and makes me think it'll be a bunch of ships I wouldn't want to field, thrown together.

Also, how is the AOL not a replacement for the League, when it is being rolled out specifically in the hole that was created by the Leagues removal, and even has a "you can no longer play the league, so heres this" introductory entry?

I realize you might not think it is a replacement, but thats hard to sell that it isn't giving those factors. I'm not trying to be argumentative, it just clearly states, "Hey, the league is gone, have a new choice."

Picture for a moment, a Raid 5 "Army of Light" fleet. The army of light was fully assembled for just a few key battles, primarily Sheridan and Delenn relied on the White Star fleet, and a handful of Sharlins.

This Army of Light, as you are trying to commit us to, is just the ISA with Sharlins, and too many allies. As it stands, I can only take one White Star, at Raid 5, unless I somehow take 10 fleets total... or something.

I see the army of light only looking proper in really big games, which isn't the tournament standard, so it shouldn't be the only real thriving tier for a list to stand on. It is replacing the league, it needs to be functional in all facets of play.

League becomes the Army of Light, Army of Light becomes the Interstellar Alliance. That just needs to be an army list, without allies, but instead a bunch of choices just like any other fleet. Especially at something like Raid 5, you're not going to represent a dozen worlds with five ships, it'd have to be a real swarm fleet to even look like the army of light, and it'd have to be at least battle or war level to represent what we saw in the show.

The show can't always be our only guide, we have to ask ourselves what an army of light fleet would look like, with only five ships. Maybe a pair of White Stars, a Sharlin, a G'Quan and an Avioki. That pushes the game way up into the War levels easy, and thats a small fleet.

How can you represent a flavorful list from the show, when the majority of your craft are notoriously underpowered canon ships, and most come from high PLs. Not good... no no... not good.

 

[Ripple]

Hindsight hit on one of my issues with the very limited ship selections... what do I do to look 'League' with only single ship selections for each race. If its a five raid fleet I don't want an Avioki... or a Batrado...

What we have for choices below raid is thin... Sunhawks and Xorr as it stands, maybe we get Warbird/Strikehawks? I guess we get the Oympus, but EA was a shadow ally for a number of the big fights... or at least involved in its own civil war... did we see all the canon EA ships in the Army?

I just want to be able to field my models, and those represent the basic 1st ed league races... no reason I can't have my Milani/Tiraca type hulls, though to an extent I can see why for timeline reasons you might not want the Juyaca/Brivioki... but then I can just use as an ally of the ISA so we're still in what your calling broken territory.

Ripple

 

[silashand]

more from a point of view of "it's more powerful than it should be". The individual fleets are balanced (near enough anyway) and I don't see many people disputing that. It's these effectively free upgrades, no matter how small they are, that get me.

And yet again we disagree. IMO if two allies work together they *should* complement each other and thus be more effective. What you're saying is basically that instead of working together in a good way that any League force should prominently display each constituent's weaknesses which I *absolutely* disagree with. There is no sense in that whatsoever, nor any semblance of realism. Sorry, but if this is the tack you are taking I think you are seriously misguided in your aims.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Triggy]

more from a point of view of "it's more powerful than it should be". The individual fleets are balanced (near enough anyway) and I don't see many people disputing that. It's these effectively free upgrades, no matter how small they are, that get me.

And yet again we disagree. IMO if two allies work together they *should* complement each other and thus be more effective. What you're saying is basically that instead of working together in a good way that any League force should prominently display each constituent's weaknesses which I *absolutely* disagree with. There is no sense in that whatsoever, nor any semblance of realism. Sorry, but if this is the tack you are taking I think you are seriously misguided in your aims.

Cheers, Gary

Nope that's not what I'm saying What I'm saying is that any League force may have an improved selection of ships available but is harder to coordinate and that's where the tradeoff should be. I'm not against League fleets, it's the logic that either:

1) They're not that much better than the rest so it's OK.
or
2) All ships in the fleet are individually balanced so therefore the entire fleet must still be balanced.

Well by that logic, it would be balanced to have the option to take any ship from any fleet in the entire game - every ship is balanced therefore the entire fleet must be balanced.


Finally and I'll say this one last time before I don't say anything more on this sub-topic - The League fleet list is in the current proposed rules not there but this isn't the end of the story. There will be a League fleet allowed in P&P but there is a decision on exactly how to balance out the improvement to the fleets that is allowed by the increased choice.

 

[Hindsight]

Well by that logic...

I put quite a bit of time and thought into my post prior to this one Triggy, and we get a reply directed at something else, when a lot has been brought up that has not been addressed, and has been echoed by at least one other immediatly following what I said.

You're asking us to trust you, and to have faith that the issue is off the table, well, what I would appreciate is some response to the issues I addressed.

How can a League Fleet represent itself with so many restrictions. If I am playing a raid 5 game, which is what I see most often as the Tournament standard, so I feel a great place to put a lot of focus... how can I represent a league fleet? All of the canonical ships are too big for Raid 5, and the ones at smaller levels are deamed broken because of swarm fears.

What is the middle ground? What is the compromise?

I'd like some responses to these issues, and whether we like the answers or not, answers at all will go a long way to establishing that trust you're asking of us.

 

[Triggy]

Well by that logic...

I put quite a bit of time and thought into my post prior to this one Triggy, and we get a reply directed at something else, when a lot has been brought up that has not been addressed, and has been echoed by at least one other immediatly following what I said.

You're asking us to trust you, and to have faith that the issue is off the table, well, what I would appreciate is some response to the issues I addressed.

How can a League Fleet represent itself with so many restrictions. If I am playing a raid 5 game, which is what I see most often as the Tournament standard, so I feel a great place to put a lot of focus... how can I represent a league fleet? All of the canonical ships are too big for Raid 5, and the ones at smaller levels are deamed broken because of swarm fears.

What is the middle ground? What is the compromise?

I'd like some responses to these issues, and whether we like the answers or not, answers at all will go a long way to establishing that trust you're asking of us.

I'll repeat myself - the AoL is not a League fleet.

There will be a separate League fleet in P&P.

 

[Hindsight]

I'll repeat myself - the AoL is not a League fleet.

There will be a separate League fleet in P&P.

Let me give you three bulleted questions then, and I'll try and number them from now on, for ease of response.

1. Give me an example of a Army of Light fleet, at Skirmish 5, Raid 5, and Battle 5. What would you take, and do you think it represents a balanced list against the commonly taken fleets at that level?

2. How does taking a White Star work in the Army of Light? Can I take as many as I want, representing the numbers of the White Star fleet? It is an ISA ship in the current rules, not a Minbari one. Will there be legal Army of Light ships, like a special Sharlin (the Dogoto, Delenn's flagship during the major fights of the war), and White Stars? The White Star fleet was present during the Army of Light timeframe, and especially so in the end of the war, which is really the only time the Army of Light fully came together as a "fleet" as we know it, and that wasn't until 2261, and only in 2261 that they all massed together in those numbers.

3. Are there enough Patrol, Skirmish and Raid choices for the Army of Light list? This goes back to #1, I think without seeing what can be arranged at each priority level, we can't make an informed decision, give us some examples of how you see this working, in a competetive setting.

4. Will the G'Quan be looked at during the P&P playtesting? Is the CBD 4 the only major change effecting the ship? It is widely accepted that it is a poor choice, can you give us some word about this highly sought after and vitally canonical ship?