Armor Rules, Picts Drool

S'mon

Mongoose
I don't see a problem with a hit causing 1hp damage. You think armour in Conan is underpowered? :?
IRL people certainly can die without their armour ever being penetrated - policemen wearing bulletproof vests that resisted the bullet impact still occasionally die from subdermal haemorrhaging, and a big hunk of iron like a sword or mace has much more force than a bullet. I can't really understand either what you have against an 'Agincourt' type scenario, it sounds very Conanish to me - I can't see King Conan laughing at the 500 Nemedian archers just because he's wearing plate harness, he'd find some cover fast!
 

Murte

Mongoose
S'mon said:
IRL people certainly can die without their armour ever being penetrated - policemen wearing bulletproof vests that resisted the bullet impact still occasionally die from subdermal haemorrhaging, and a big hunk of iron like a sword or mace has much more force than a bullet.

S'mon you can't be serious. Impact Force= .5Mass x Velocity^2. A 10g bullet moving at 300m/s is close to equalling a 9kg maul moving at 10m/s. Now considering your average 7.62mmx51mm ball round weighs 9.3g and moves at 830m/s that gives us a 32kg maul moving at 10m/s.

:idea:
 

S'mon

Mongoose
Murte said:
S'mon said:
IRL people certainly can die without their armour ever being penetrated - policemen wearing bulletproof vests that resisted the bullet impact still occasionally die from subdermal haemorrhaging, and a big hunk of iron like a sword or mace has much more force than a bullet.

S'mon you can't be serious. Impact Force= .5Mass x Velocity^2. A 10g bullet moving at 300m/s is close to equalling a 9kg maul moving at 10m/s. Now considering your average 7.62mmx51mm ball round weighs 9.3g and moves at 830m/s that gives us a 32kg maul moving at 10m/s.

:idea:

Er... well maybe you could compare a 9mm parabellum to a 3kg mace for me? :eek:
 

S'mon

Mongoose
S'mon said:
Murte said:
S'mon said:
IRL people certainly can die without their armour ever being penetrated - policemen wearing bulletproof vests that resisted the bullet impact still occasionally die from subdermal haemorrhaging, and a big hunk of iron like a sword or mace has much more force than a bullet.

S'mon you can't be serious. Impact Force= .5Mass x Velocity^2. A 10g bullet moving at 300m/s is close to equalling a 9kg maul moving at 10m/s. Now considering your average 7.62mmx51mm ball round weighs 9.3g and moves at 830m/s that gives us a 32kg maul moving at 10m/s.

:idea:

1/2 mass x velocity squared is the bullet or sword's kinetic energy, its momentum = mass x velocity, right?
 

S'mon

Mongoose
Thinking about it, I may have been confusing missile and melee weapons - I remember reading that longbow arrows had much more KE than bullets (making it particularly inappropriate that a bow do no blunt impact trauma), and crossbow bolts much more KE again, of course. :oops:
So maybe only bows & crossbows should do the 1pt min, not melee weapons? :)

10m/s does seem slow for a blow, though (maybe not for a 32kg maul!) when a typical character runs at 20'/6m per second.
 

Murte

Mongoose
The formula for impact force is as stated .5MxV1^2. As requested though here is the stats for a 9mm Para.

6g at 425m/s which is equal to a 5.4kg maul moving at 10m/s. As far as 10m/s being slow in game terms that is a move of 90 at a hustle.

Now with arrows and corssbows, no neither has the impact nor penetrating power of their firearm counterparts. The speed factor outweighs the weight factor immensly. And last I checked there was not any type of bow that could project its ammunition at supersonic speeds. What the typical broadhead arrow does have in its favor is that all of it's power is concentrated at a sigle point with razor thin blades cutting through fleshy material. It is this same reason why one can get shot in the neck with an arrow and suffer no major injuries, but getting shot in the neck will almost result from death due to the impact shock of a bullet which leaves a bigger "footprint" which pretty much will burst the cartoid arteries and may also collapse the windpipe.

Momentum is p=mv, however it is an internal force and not an external force. In order to see how an object in motion will affect another object it encounters one must use Newton's Laws, thus F=mv^2.

In anycase, ain't any firarms in Conan anyhow. :wink:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
S'mon said:
I don't see a problem with a hit causing 1hp damage. You think armour in Conan is underpowered? :?
Like I said, It's more about some specific issues like poisoned weapons I already had to deal with in D&D. If find situations like 'you take 1 HP damage but the weapons hasn't actually hit you' ankward. I feel better with using subdual damage. It's more intutive than anything else

S'mon said:
I can't really understand either what you have against an 'Agincourt' type scenario
Well, maybe it's about which side of the Channel I live on. :wink: Strangely, I feel better about it after yesterday's match....

More seriously, I admitted having a serious problem here an not knowing how to fix it. Using the official ruling isn't really a thrilling perspective either : we'll end up with knights killed by 30 1hp arrows, none having 'really' penetrated his armour.

In times like this, I really whish I'd know more about history. I mean, apart from the fact Agincourt was more about complacency, indiscipline, tactical cluelessness and the world-shattering stupidity of fighting a courageous and skilled ennemy on his own terms than about the power of the British longbow, I don't know much about the details of the fight. I mean : how did this knights died ? Were they actually killed at long range by the bows ? Were they trampled by their friends ? Were they dispatched at point blank while trying to cross the British field fortifications ? Were they killed in detail by men-at-arms protecting the bowmen after their horses were downed ? I don't know, but there are many possibilities.

Long story short, I can't help thinking there's a problem about armour and missile weapons but I can't put my finger on it. Is the AP rating of special bows too low or should point blank shots be finessable ? I don't know, and maybe I'm worrying about non-existent issues.
 

Yuan-Ti

Mongoose
S'mon said:
Long story short, I can't help thinking there's a problem about armour and missile weapons but I can't put my finger on it. Is the AP rating of special bows too low or should point blank shots be finessable ? I don't know, and maybe I'm worrying about non-existent issues.

Maybe there could be a maneuver like the one someone has come up with for Sneak Attacking after a Feint. Prereqs could be Point Blank and Precise Shot, and you could Finesse shots inside 30 feet -- that is, if your Attack Roll + bonuses exceeded the targets DV by his DR, then you do not deduct the DR from your damage roll. To bring it into line with the idea that a Finesse attack gives up STR bonus to AP, that should be included as well -- so the Bossonian Archer with the Mighty +2 Bossonian Longbow, would not get to add his +2 STR mod to this AP if he tried to Finesse attacks inside 30ft.

Just a thought.
 

Shonuff

Mongoose
Yuan-Ti said:
Maybe there could be a maneuver like the one someone has come up with for Sneak Attacking after a Feint. Prereqs could be Point Blank and Precise Shot, and you could Finesse shots inside 30 feet

OK Yuan-Ti.
Here is something that might work.
It is hopefully somewhat balanced by the need for extra time/effort and concentration.

Combat Maneuver

Finesse Shot
By taking careful aim at your opponent while at close range, you attempt to have your ranged weapon attack strike between crevices and chinks of your enemy’s armour.

Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Dexterity 13+
Circumstances: Your opponent must be within 30 feet of you and you must spend a full-round action aiming, which provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies.

Effect: Following your full-round spent aiming, your next attack is considered a finesse attack (however all normal modifiers to damage still apply - such as bow strength). If your ranged attack roll beats the target’s Defense Value by a number equal to at least the DR of the armour, that armour is then completely ignored. To successfully perform this maneuver, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while aiming your finesse shot, then you must make a Concentration skill check or lose the opportunity to complete your attack. (See the Concentration skill on page 88 for the DC of the check.)

---------------------
Example:
The thief and expert archer hides in the shadows close by while taking careful aim at the Zamoran Captain of the Guard as he addresses his troops. Finally, the thief lets lose the arrow from his Hrykanian bow. Although protected by both mail hauberk and breast plate, the shaft buries itself into the exposed neck of the Captain.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Re Agincourt - on this side of the channel we get lots of TV shows about it. Consensus seems to be that most of the French knights were killed in melee by the English longbowmen (using mallets, daggers etc), while dismounted and prone in the 'sucking' mud that tended to form a vacuum seal with their rigid plate armour. Of course one reason they were often prone was the arrow-storm, which rarely killed directly (although a bodkin arrow can often penetrate light plate armour at point-blank range), but would batter, pound and disorient them.

I don't think using subdual damage for non-pentrating blows would be unreasonable BTW, I just wouldn't ignore it entirely for medieval-type armour. For sf-style Power Armour, yeah ok, the wearer may be cocooned against all impact, but not for the Conan game.
 

S'mon

Mongoose
Anonymous said:
Re Agincourt - on this side of the channel we get lots of TV shows about it. Consensus seems to be that most of the French knights were killed in melee by the English longbowmen (using mallets, daggers etc), while dismounted and prone in the 'sucking' mud that tended to form a vacuum seal with their rigid plate armour. Of course one reason they were often prone was the arrow-storm, which rarely killed directly (although a bodkin arrow can often penetrate light plate armour at point-blank range), but would batter, pound and disorient them.

I don't think using subdual damage for non-pentrating blows would be unreasonable BTW, I just wouldn't ignore it entirely for medieval-type armour. For sf-style Power Armour, yeah ok, the wearer may be cocooned against all impact, but not for the Conan game.

That was me. :)
 
I was interested to look some things up. Here are some of the things I found

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1065041749.Ph.r.html
Arrows shot by the famous Welsh bowmen at around the
time of Henry the Fifth in Britain could penetrate solid oak, four inches
thick and poke through by over six inches.

There is a tremendous amount of information about the mechanics of archery here http://homepage.ntlworld.com/joetapley/ ,although it doesn't have any particular bearing on the question it is still interesting reading.

Referring to an interesting study that I couldn't track down the original of, I found this http://www.bowsite.org/bowsite/tf/thread.cfm?threadid=230560&forum=1

Dr. Ed Asby and others whose studies have shown that momentum predicts penetration more accurately than kinetic energy, all other factors being equal (same diameter shaft, same broadhead, etc.) The author is quick to note that on foam penetration tests two blade broadheads penetrate better than multi-blades and that a heavier arrow with more momentum penetrates deeper than a light arrow with more kinetic energy.
...
Dr. Asby backs his finding with hundreds of shots, with various equipment, broadheads, and arrow weights, to support his findings.

Reading through the various responses on that thread it also appears that there is considerable anecdotal evidence to suggest that momentum is more significant than KE when determining penetration.

Quite interesting (in a not at all relevant to the rules of an RPG sort of way!)

Cheers
 

S'mon

Mongoose
Plane Sailing said:
Reading through the various responses on that thread it also appears that there is considerable anecdotal evidence to suggest that momentum is more significant than KE when determining penetration.

Thought so. :)
 

Hyena

Mongoose
Anonymous said:
Re Agincourt - on this side of the channel we get lots of TV shows about it. Consensus seems to be that most of the French knights were killed in melee by the English longbowmen (using mallets, daggers etc), while dismounted and prone in the 'sucking' mud that tended to form a vacuum seal with their rigid plate armour. Of course one reason they were often prone was the arrow-storm, which rarely killed directly (although a bodkin arrow can often penetrate light plate armour at point-blank range), but would batter, pound and disorient them.

I don't think using subdual damage for non-pentrating blows would be unreasonable BTW, I just wouldn't ignore it entirely for medieval-type armour. For sf-style Power Armour, yeah ok, the wearer may be cocooned against all impact, but not for the Conan game.

Thanks, this more or less what I've guessed. It comforts me in my idea. For the time being, the few historical articles I managed to lay my hands on tend to support the 'invulnerable knight' idea. Standard procedure to deal with them being : dismount them, take them down, finesse them while they're helpless.

Anyway, I'm gonna make full plate a very rare occurence in my games. Most knigts will be equipped with mail hauberks and hauberks/breastplate (primitive plate). I may allow subdual damage for arrows since you're talking about battered and pounded knights.
 

Yuan-Ti

Mongoose
Shonuff said:
OK Yuan-Ti.
Here is something that might work.
It is hopefully somewhat balanced by the need for extra time/effort and concentration.

Combat Maneuver

Finesse Shot
By taking careful aim at your opponent while at close range, you attempt to have your ranged weapon attack strike between crevices and chinks of your enemy’s armour.

Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Dexterity 13+
Circumstances: Your opponent must be within 30 feet of you and you must spend a full-round action aiming, which provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies.

Effect: Following your full-round spent aiming, your next attack is considered a finesse attack (however all normal modifiers to damage still apply - such as bow strength). If your ranged attack roll beats the target’s Defense Value by a number equal to at least the DR of the armour, that armour is then completely ignored. To successfully perform this maneuver, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while aiming your finesse shot, then you must make a Concentration skill check or lose the opportunity to complete your attack. (See the Concentration skill on page 88 for the DC of the check.)

---------------------
Example:
The thief and expert archer hides in the shadows close by while taking careful aim at the Zamoran Captain of the Guard as he addresses his troops. Finally, the thief lets lose the arrow from his Hrykanian bow. Although protected by both mail hauberk and breast plate, the shaft buries itself into the exposed neck of the Captain.

Hmmm... I think I like it. Then I could offer my Bossonian archer a feat -- Improved Aim, which allows him to Finesse Shot as a move action if he has the Rapid Shot feat. :)
 

Yokiboy

Mongoose
Shonuff said:
Finesse Shot
By taking careful aim at your opponent while at close range, you attempt to have your ranged weapon attack strike between crevices and chinks of your enemy’s armour.

Very cool Shonuff, I dig it!

TTFN,

Yokiboy
 

Yokiboy

Mongoose
Anonymous said:
Like I said, It's more about some specific issues like poisoned weapons I already had to deal with in D&D. If find situations like 'you take 1 HP damage but the weapons hasn't actually hit you' ankward. I feel better with using subdual damage. It's more intutive than anything else

Personally I'd only allow a minimum of 1hp of damage on melee attacks. I also have this be Non-Lethal damage IMC.

TTFN,

Yokiboy
 
While the fans may have a good grasp on house ruling this subject...

when i read the minimum 1 damage rule, i interpreted it to mean after the DR of Armor was calculated (but not a barbarian's natural skin DR extraordinary quality).

However, what immediately popped in my head was a fully armored knight being pelted with a hail of golf balls from 50 Scottish Clansmen, each aiming at the poor English knight. When the knight's body was sent back, dented plate mail and all... his grave would read "The Knight thought he'd play a round up north, but the Scottish wouldn't let him on the green, so away to the grave was he sent, killed by the golf ball, of course."
 

Yokiboy

Mongoose
Ravager_of_Worlds said:
However, what immediately popped in my head was a fully armored knight being pelted with a hail of golf balls from 50 Scottish Clansmen, each aiming at the poor English knight. When the knight's body was sent back, dented plate mail and all... his grave would read "The Knight thought he'd play a round up north, but the Scottish wouldn't let him on the green, so away to the grave was he sent, killed by the golf ball, of course."

Ugh... :p

Anyhow, you're right, but I see arrows glancing off plate mail for instance. For simplicity I'll probably allow a minimum of 1hp of damage from all attacks though. Although I will try to use Non-Lethal damage instead, seems like all concussion damage to me.

TTFN,

Yokiboy
 
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