Armor Rules, Picts Drool

[Anonymous]

Okay, we had 5 12th level PC's, and I threw 30 4th level Pictish barbarians with 30 hit points each at them.

Oh, those poor Picts were just massacred. Clubs and Hatchets, really, really stink on ice.

Our noble, Lord Numitor, was on horseback in plate armor and visored helmet. He was surrounded by 8 Picts. They could do virtually nothing against him. Eventually the combine attacks of all 8 Picts (2 attacks each, club and Hatchet) managed to kill his horse--that's 16 attacks to kill one horse. THe horse had DR 6, the Picts could get at most 2-3 points through with a club attack, and had to get a finesse hit to do any damage at all with the hatchet.

Against Numitor himself they were useless. Even with the "piling on" cumulative +1's, the odds of the last guy getting a finesse hit through the 12 points of armor was really small. They tried grappling, but were just as feeble with that.

It was a learning experience. I know now that you've just got to have the PC's fight guys with real weapons. Bring on the bardiche men!

 

[VincentDarlage]

THe horse had DR 6, the Picts could get at most 2-3 points through with a club attack, and had to get a finesse hit to do any damage at all with the hatchet.

Against Numitor himself they were useless. Even with the "piling on" cumulative +1's, the odds of the last guy getting a finesse hit through the 12 points of armor was really small. They tried grappling, but were just as feeble with that.

Every hit does a minimum of 1 point of damage. If in the woods and using some tactics, 30 4th level Picts should have slaughtered 4 12th level characters.

I have been almost routinely slaughtering characters with 1st level Picts led by a single 3rd level Pict. Not too long ago, a PC Party leading a column of 32 armoured men-at-arms was slaughtered down to 2 PC's and one man-at-arm by a group of 8 1st level Picts and 1 3rd level Pict who had set an ambush (and lost only a few of the Picts).

 

[sanseveria]

Is the minimum 1 point of damage official? I was under the impression that if you don't beat the DR, you fail to do any damage.

SS

 

[VincentDarlage]

Is the minimum 1 point of damage official? I was under the impression that if you don't beat the DR, you fail to do any damage.

SS

Page 159 under Damage - "Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage."

Basically, if you bopped around enough, even if it doesn't physically hurt you, it wears you down.

A club and hatchet attack by a Pict means about two hit points per round to armoured foes if the attacks hit - and if the Picts surround someone... between flanking bonuses and the surrounding bonuses, someone is going to get hurt.

 

[Anonymous]

Still with an average Warhorse having 24 hp, 16 hits with 4 of them doing 3 points and the rest doing 1 point each math stil works out.

Ran into a similiar problem with a chariot drawn by two Stygian Warhorse with a driver and two Stygian Archers in the back. My Turanian started firing before the Stygians, aiming for the horses since he could see the glint of mail on the chariot (range penalties and cover forget it) Well after three hits on one horse, the chariot got to a firing position and well one shot from that Stygian Bow did 13 points, thankful for my Leather Jerkin and Steel cap I was able to survive the fight, as a prisoner.

BTW, was using a Hykranian Bow +2 and was 1st level. But a 6DR on a horse is WAY to much, boars, bears, and thick hided creatures should have 6+, but DR 4 for "regular" skinned animals.

 

[BhilJhoanz]

I have been almost routinely slaughtering characters with 1st level Picts led by a single 3rd level Pict. Not too long ago, a PC Party leading a column of 32 armoured men-at-arms was slaughtered down to 2 PC's and one man-at-arm by a group of 8 1st level Picts and 1 3rd level Pict who had set an ambush (and lost only a few of the Picts).

Environment can make a huge difference in a fight too . . . fighting Picts in the woods is very different from fighting them in the open. Being ambushed by Picts in a narrow forest trail is quite deadly -- Armor does help a whole lot against them however.

Had those Pict's been fighting wisely, they should have used arrows to bring down the horse (who would move quite slowly through the forest and couldn't charge) and then grapple & pin the Noble.

 

[Anonymous]

Is the minimum 1 point of damage official? I was under the impression that if you don't beat the DR, you fail to do any damage.

SS

Page 159 under Damage - "Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage."

Basically, if you bopped around enough, even if it doesn't physically hurt you, it wears you down.

A club and hatchet attack by a Pict means about two hit points per round to armoured foes if the attacks hit - and if the Picts surround someone... between flanking bonuses and the surrounding bonuses, someone is going to get hurt.

Yes if that minimum damage rule were true, it would have changed everything in the fight. The Picts would have slaughtered them. But, look at p159 again, it says that the various rules apply: "If the weapon penetrates armor" so if it can't overcome Armor DR, then the minimum damage rule does not apply, as far as I can see.

 

[sanseveria]

Also, I'm not sure DR qualifies as a penalty.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Sometimes you just got to use a little common sense. I cannot imagine a guy in a chain coat and a steel cap (even plate armour) standing in the middle of bunch of Picts while they hack at him with hatchets and clubs without that guy getting hurt! If he takes no damage, he could walk across the Pictish wilderness and back all day, yawning, as hordes and hordes of Picts unleash arrows and hatchets at him all day long, with all of it bouncing off his armour as if he were Superman.

Whether official or not, I like using the minimum damage rule. I'd hate to have some armoured character laughing like Errol Flynn, not dodging or parrying, crying out "Strike me! Strike me! I am invincible!"

 

[tekatana]

I think counting that 1 point of minimum damage as subdual works best. The Picts would have knocked out the plate mail wearer, representing him being worn down, but not killing him since no blood was shed and nothing important was crushed from the initial blows.

 

[VincentDarlage]

That seems like a fair ruling. A little common sense like that goes a long way.

 

[MightyCthulhu]

Okay, we had 5 12th level PC's, and I threw 30 4th level Pictish barbarians with 30 hit points each at them.

Oh, those poor Picts were just massacred.

And rightly so!

That not quite a CR8 encounter! At a CR of (partly level -4) it should be a slaughter! Especially since you have an extra character in your party. It's like sending 5, 5th level D&D characters, against a group of 4 Goblins. LOL! Poor Goblins...

 

[sanseveria]

I really like the idea of 1 point of subdual damage, even if the damage is reduced to 0 by the DR, makes sense. I'll have to try that one and see how it works.

SS

 

[BhilJhoanz]

at not quite a CR8 encounter!

au contraire -- 1 4th level Pict is a CR4 encounter. Each doubling of the number adds 2 to the CR (don't ask why, it just does for some reason) so . . .
2 Picts = CR6
4 Picts = CR8
8 Picts = CR10
16 Picts = CR12
32 Picts = CR14

14 * (4/5) = CR11 <-- adjusting for the 5th PC

Just right for a challenge.

Of course, Conan ain't D&D and even in D&D, CR means diddly . . .

 

[MightyCthulhu]

au contraire -- 1 4th level Pict is a CR4 encounter. Each doubling of the number adds 2 to the CR (don't ask why, it just does for some reason) so . . .
2 Picts = CR6
4 Picts = CR8
8 Picts = CR10
16 Picts = CR12
32 Picts = CR14

14 * (4/5) = CR11 <-- adjusting for the 5th PC

Just right for a challenge.

Of course, Conan ain't D&D and even in D&D, CR means diddly . . .

Your right! My bad.

 

[Rikki-Tikki-Tavi]

Yes, but Doesn't it say that once you read a certain point it meaningless to stack to increase CR? I know it did in 3.0. Anyway, in normal D&D if you have a group of 15th level adventures, they can wipe the floor with goblins. Try trowing some, try 100, try more. There is a point when what you trow at someone becomes too weak, no matter the numbers.

 

[S'mon]

It sounds like your Picts were badly under-equipped for 4th level barbarians, who by rights are the tribal elite - I'd expect some kind of decent weapon at a minimum. Look at the Slaine stories - the Celyts may fight naked but the tribal champions use weapons that are primitive but deadly. Something like a flint battleaxe wielded 2-handed would be reasonable, or a heavy spear.

The minimum 1hp damage on any hit clearly is an official rule BTW, I can't understand why you wouldn't use it. If anything it's too lenient, something like minimum 1 hp per 1-10 hp of pre-armour damage would be more sensible, a powerful blow against heavy armour will always hurt the wearer with bruising and subdermal bleeding.

Something else you were ignoring is the grapple rules - if 8 Picts aren't making an impression on a mounted opponent they're going to grapple him, drag him off his horse, pin him (DV > 6 or less) and kil him. Don't think of it like a video game, think of what you would do if you were those Picts and wanted to win!

I agree that DR 6 is far too high for a horse, DR 1-2 would be more reasonable.
DR 4 for the cheap leather jerkin seems too high also (only 1 pt less than a chain shirt), I'm thinking of using that for heavy cuirboulli and having a light jerkin with DR 2.

 

[argo]

The minimum 1hp damage on any hit clearly is an official rule BTW, I can't understand why you wouldn't use it. If anything it's too lenient, something like minimum 1 hp per 1-10 hp of pre-armour damage would be more sensible, a powerful blow against heavy armour will always hurt the wearer with bruising and subdermal bleeding.

Short answer: no.

Conan is an OGL game and the SRD is quite clear on the topic. Damage Reduction can reduce damage to 0 if it is high enough. The SRD has the same passage about Minimum Damage = 1 (in fact, that pasage is a copy/paste from the SRD) but in the section under DR it says

Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack...

Also, in the Section on a Brb's DR (which is x/- just like armor DR in Conan) it says

Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0.

The rule that minimum damage = 1 is there for the case where a guy with a 6 Str rolls a 2 for damage, he will still deal 1 point for a sucessful hit _before_ DR is applied. Nowhere in Conan does it say anything to contradict this so the correct assumption is that the standard rule applies.

However, if you wanted to house rule that DR can't reduce damage below 1 point, in order to have a deadlier game, I think that would be OK. Although it would basically make a quilted or leather jerkin completly pointless.

Changing subjects. You are right about grappling. The origional post said that it wasn't working but I think that his picts just wern't trying hard enough. The great thing about grappling is that it is an opposed roll which means that if you are using swarm tactics then sooner or later the player is going to run out of luck. Once two or three guys have gotten a hold on him he probably can't break free (he has to beat all their checks with just one roll) and without a dex bonus his DV will be about 10. Even if there is nobody with sneak attack around the bad guys can still easily finesse attack to bypass his armor completly or power attack for their full BAB.

A party at that level should still win even against those odds, but not walk away without a scratch. Make them feel a little fear of the overwhelming horde before they slaughter them and you will have done your job.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Conan is an OGL game and the SRD is quite clear on the topic. Damage Reduction can reduce damage to 0 if it is high enough.

Of course the SRD was written with AC in mind, not with characters that could purchase damage reduction nearly at will. Conan operates in variance with the SRD in several places; it makes sense to operate at a variance here as well, or else you will have Conan's trek through the Pictish Wilderness merely an exercise in patience as armoured characters waltz through, ignoring the inhabitants.

*Ding!*

"What was that?"

"Oh, a Pict just shot an arrow at you."

"Oh."

 

[S'mon]

Short answer: no.

Conan is an OGL game and the SRD is quite clear on the topic...

As Vincent said, the Conan rules are not the same as the SRD rules, either on this point or several others. The Conan rules specifically include a minimum damage = 1 pt rule. You're free to ignore it if you prefer of course.