There are ways you can extrapolate, laying aside the military advances, the changes would be (and this is in no way the limits as I don’t wanna dive into it very much) higher living standards, as medicine gets better, the same tumult with expertise as we see in today and in history when tech has a boom and economies slide to new gears, higher connectivity with people not just on your own world but in your minor leagues and polities so your cultural identity is spread far far wider, I mean TL14 is supposed to allow Ecopoiesis that’s just insane understanding of how you inhabit the strange new worlds you’re surrounded by. Cities no longer need ground real estate as they can float, the tech charts paint a vivid picture of what you can expect at the higher levels, and this dosnt even scratch the surface of some of the near magic that can appear, like anagathics, essentially immortality in pill form (how it is in my head don’t ruin it) and while that is illegal in the 3i, it does exist and is used by those few that can. So I do think there is enough info on how a society and culture can potentially change along technological avenues, the social reality is often a good deal muddier the same inter generational conflict will preside the whole “kids these days are lazy” they’ve been saying that for well over 100 years at this point in the real world. But I do agree that it’s a lot of division, it’s why I’d like some better rules on retro-tech and how you can create your own variations more easily, not only do I think it would create a frame work for future releases, I think it’s would also save space in any future catalogs as well, as you can list a single item at the lowest level it’s likely, and then put a maximum TL into a box and with the retro tech rules define what those changes would have been, as things can only get so good.
Armies of the Fifth Frontier War, Impressions Not Errata
- Thread starter ottarrus
- Start date
I’m aware, but I think you’re overestimating it, you’re right though, but I think you must make allowances somewhere so you’re not pigeon holing, into the mindset that, “unless I have highest tl, it’s all useless” mindset, it’s kinda toxic to play with and I’ve experienced it personally. The BD argument is too deep and nitpicky for me to dive into though, especially in a thread that’s not exactly about augmentative armour systems and their capabilities.
I can’t agree with this, I don’t think you have to be so rigid in your approach to advancing a story. I agree that it’s should heavily influence and guide your writing but it be entirely constrained by its is silly, as you may aswell not bother writing anything at all at that point and just rerelease the old stuff in its old form, though your are correct with needing a consistent vision, certain universal constants need to be maintained across the whole album, but I don’t thinks it’s universe breaking to have a little wiggle room and creative listened if it turns out a better story or something
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Look up the rules for hacking encrypted communications in Traveller. The higher TL force can literally decode all of the communications of the lower TL force. The lower TL force cannot hack the communications of their enemy at all. That alone is enough to win a war. Information Warfare. If I know more than My enemy, I win, even if all I have a sticks and stones. I believe Sun Tzu said something similar.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
A little wiggle room and creative license. Thinking like that is one of the reasons these problems exist. Everyone wants "wiggle room". No one wants to be bound by anything and that is fine for Players and Referees. It however is not fine for publishers. If a publisher wishes to do that, they are better off standing up and saying to everyone, we are changing Canon and nothing not published by us is Canon. Mongoose can do that and that would be the new Canon. It takes out tons of these discussions, because no previous Canon would now exist for Mongoose to violate or alter. This entirely disrespects the 40+ year history of the game, but oh well, it is Mongoose's toy to destroy if they want to.
So, yes. Wiggle Room and people not wanting to feel constrained by rules are why we have 90% of the issues in this game and this setting.
I don’t need to look it up, I’m very aware if the bonus that technology gives, I’ve been very consistent in my view of it in my posts here, but just cause you can crack comms, doesn’t mean you’re gonna know much more, there are a number of counter measures you can use to counter this superiority, anyway, I don’t wanna dive like I said, it’s not what this is about and it’s already established and agreed on in this discussion/argument that tech parity is dumb and the one that has more is at a significant advantage, but that doesn’t mean much as the goal is establish victory with a series of small victories rather than a decisive one, just like we do in play.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Will some of the other vets in here chime in. If you know everything your enemy is doing before they do it, then you win. Period. The only way around that is if you are so crippled that you can't move. You would literally have access to their own camera and location systems on the enemy armors. Their tactical Battlenet? You are in the group chat!
You won't even have small victories if they enemy knows you are coming and can tell what you are carrying down to the last bullet before you ever leave your base.
You need flexibility and they have already said they are changing the canon, in fact I think it was one of the goals of FFW series, they want the players to be able to influence the conflict to such a degree as that there is a chance of a decisive victory for one side or the other or none at a all, and no it doesn’t disrespect the 40 years of history, if you don’t like it, don’t play, but being so diametrically opposed to change is a much larger problem as it’s my understanding that some of the old outcomes of the universe utterly SUCK and are almost universally disliked.
You are right, but you’re not thinking like a sneaky enough lizard there are enough ways to subvert their tech advantage still available for you to beable to take action. Victory may well be impossible but that doesn’t mean you don’t try.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Fibre optic cables.
And wire guided missiles.
And wire guided missiles.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Strangely, autonomous wire-cutting drones would handle both of those issues and could be done with the existing equipment in a TL-15 army.
Wow! That was easy. I barely had to think to overcome that one (those two) and I am not even a member of the Imperial Army.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Maybe you like it when people rewrite the history books, but most of us do not. It is one of the reasons why a lot of us didn't like the Virus and the Empress Wave or even the Rebellion. It was basically writers wishing to trash what already existed, so that they could do something different. Disney did the same with their Star Wars universe and it was almost universally hated by the fans.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Strangely, autonomous wire-cutting drones would handle both of those issues and could be done with the existing equipment in a TL-15 army.
Wow! That was easy. I barely had to think to overcome that one (those two) and I am not even a member of the Imperial Army.
They'll have to go snooping along the ground to cut communications, leaving them vulnerable to snipers.
As for the missiles, reaction time would be rather curtailed, if the missile isn't strolling along.
Oh, you’re one of “them” okay, I’m disengaging from you to save this growing toxic as I’m abrasive and retaliating will happen at some point, though you’re sideways dig about rewriting history is perhaps a bit extreme, we aren’t talking about anything as insidious as that, we’re talking about a game universe that is set like 3000-5000 years in the future, and because it’s a game, you can’t just say, “I win cause I have level 15 and your level 14” it’s worse than a fan fic oc written by a hyperactive 10 year old.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I don't say that. The MgT2 rules say that. Hey @MongooseMatt ! Did you hear? Pogo seems to think your High Guard book is worse than, "a fan fic oc written by a hyperactive 10 year old."
I definitely have my issues with certain parts of the system as well as quality control or lack thereof in Mongoose products. I like consistency. Game rules are like laws of physics. They don't determine what stories are told, but they do determine how they are told. That is why the fluff needs to match the mechanics. That is why consistency is important for publishers. It makes life easier on the players and the Referees who buy their products. It makes it easier to learn rules if the rules don't change book to book. It makes it easier to learn the setting if the setting doesn't keep rewriting itself. I am not talking about a never changing setting, but I am talking about not overwriting the old when you create the new. It is not overly restricting. I can take every history book ever written in English (because my grasp of other languages is not good enough) and still have an almost unlimited amount of room to include world changing events and not change one thing that is already written. Written history is only a drop of water in the ocean compared to everything that has happened great and small and either never been written about or all written accounts were lost.
tomfreshwater
Mongoose
First point is irrelevant it doesn’t matter how good the game is or not. They just applied their skills for their new project. Doesn’t mean it is a sourcebook or equivalent.
Second point might be because you haven’t checked back or not quite understood my point. Supplement 9 gives us some examples of battleships and cruisers. Cruisers do not even get close to parity with battleships there. Megatraveller introduced 4 ship sqds only in one unofficial supplement by fasa do we see any attempt at squadron structure being dealt with before hand. So there is no reason for CruRons to be so powerful. It is information that is superseded later on.
Third point why didn’t all the down trodden subjects of the ziru sirka pull off this neat trick then and escape the limitations of jump-1. It was quickly realised that this was loop hole and should be plugged, which it was, starting with book 5 high guard. The drive was constructed for the ship and although you could use the previously listed ‘stock’ drives, every version of traveller after removed them.
So I still would stick with FFW is not canon, was not meant to be. Even in the original history of the war in the spinward marches campaign (GDW product from the time) the fleet numbers from the game are shown in positions not possible on the game board. Then also most of the time these fleets are spread across multiple worlds, which is not possible in the game. And we know they are spread across multiple worlds as in a few points the fleets are shown as being on single worlds, like corridor fleet on Rhylanor in the status map for 001-1110.
So the game can’t even replicate the canon history of the war from GDW’s time. So it cannot be canon.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
It says it is a source book in the game itself...
on the cover: "For Use with Traveller"
then: "Fifth Frontier War is a Traveller campaign game portraying the progress of a far-reaching interstellar war and its effects on the many worlds that are its battlefield."
at the end we get two pages of integration with the role playing game, including:
"ROLE-PLAYING
Role-playing appears to Traveller players to be a simple series of adventures in which situations are presented, dealt with by the players, and resolved. The Traveller referee knows that there is a lot more to running a consistent, interesting Traveller campaign; preparation for each situation is required, contingencies must be foreseen, and background laid out. Fifth Frontier War is intended as a partial solution to the problems of presenting situations to Traveller players."
I could post the lot, but I'm sure you can read it yourslef.
A squadron of heavy cruisers is almost parity with the weakest BB in S:9, wew actually know which cruiser squadrons are AHLs and can infer what the rest are. I disagree that the S:9 cruisers squadrons are not close to parity, you have to compare the best cruiser with the worst BatRon. Which then lerads to the question of how the combat factors for the counters are determined. Attack factor is likely linked to number and size of spinals, defence is linked to number of hulls, armour and screens.
A couple of decades ago we spent a few months discussing this over on CotI.
Because they changed the rules of the setting. It can be handwaved that the Vilani could only get drive performance of jump 1 from the drives they had and so were limited to the hulls they could use as a minimum for each drive, but the real reason is they changed the setting. Never the less if you take a jump 1 drive from a 200t HG80 ship (4t) and stick it in a 100t HG80 ship you get jump 3 performance (4t required).
Not so, if you salvage a drive from a ship you can stick it in a new ship and the performance is based on the percentage of jump machinery you have installed in accordance with the hull tonnage of the new ship. You can do this in every version up to Mongoose because they introduce the surcharge.
Except for the explicit statement on the box and in the rule book.
The GDW authors were not always know to theri attention to such details - anic nova, gazelle, numerous others
They took artistic licence to tell their story, in the same way as they constructed the setting without using all the rules as written.
Fweeba
Mongoose
On a slightly different topic, I've just noticed something else which has me scratching my head.
From the section on psionics, page 30:
Is this a special skill that people can train? Does the target get to oppose the roll somehow? Do they increase the difficulty of the telepath check? Is this something a player character can learn to do? Or is the concept just imperial propaganda and doesn't actually exist.
From the section on psionics, page 30:
You can train yourself to deceive telepaths without being a psion yourself? If this really is a thing, it would be great to have actual mechanics for it, because Travellers, being the adventurous sort, are likely to come into contact with telepaths or have telepaths on the team.
Is this a special skill that people can train? Does the target get to oppose the roll somehow? Do they increase the difficulty of the telepath check? Is this something a player character can learn to do? Or is the concept just imperial propaganda and doesn't actually exist.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I missed that entirely! Good catch! I would love to say it should have mechanics, but you are right. It is just as likely to be in-universe propaganda. Sadly.
