Armies of the Fifth Frontier War, Impressions Not Errata

[MasterGwydion]

They use makers to make spares...

Your Army is equipped to TL7, you do not mass produce TL5 spares. You build repair factories at every IN base, Imperial Waystaion, you may even build TL15 military factories on lower TL worlds.

And then we got to the industrial revolution and the pace of change accelerated.

And they were easily defeated on the battlefield.

How many horse mounted units are now maintained for frontline battle?

The Imperium has been TL15 for over a hundred years, it has been TL14 for three centuries before that, a period where it has fought peer opponents on three occasions. By the start of the FFW the Imperial Army is TL15, the Imperial Navy is TL15, with a 100 years of stockpiling, 100 years to build repair facilities and parts manufacturer. It has the population and industrial base to do this easily.

This! Thank you @Sigtrygg

 

[MonsterX]

They use makers to make spares...

Your Army is equipped to TL7, you do not mass produce TL5 spares. You build repair factories at every IN base, Imperial Waystaion, you may even build TL15 military factories on lower TL worlds.

And then we got to the industrial revolution and the pace of change accelerated.

And they were easily defeated on the battlefield.

How many horse mounted units are now maintained for frontline battle?

The Imperium has been TL15 for over a hundred years, it has been TL14 for three centuries before that, a period where it has fought peer opponents on three occasions. By the start of the FFW the Imperial Army is TL15, the Imperial Navy is TL15, with a 100 years of stockpiling, 100 years to build repair facilities and parts manufacturer. It has the population and industrial base to do this easily.

If it were the case that you could turn out new equipment with a few TL 15 makers, then there would not be anything but TL 15 worlds in the Imperium. You can plausibly argue that it should be like that, since by the time period of the game we will probably have achieved a post-scarcity society, but that is not the premise of the game. TL 15 factories for military production on lower TL worlds are a plausible partial solution, and there is support in Traveller canon, but those will only work by shipping in lots of inputs from TL 15 worlds (otherwise we are doing away with the premise that some (most) worlds are lower tech)

Indeed during the industrial revolution the pace of change accelerated. If you want to assume it will stay like it is now, we'll be at TL 1000 by the time of the FFW. Which is totally plausible, in fact in my opinion it is more likely to be what happens if mankind actually survives that long, but it is also not the premise of the game, mainly because it wouldn't be a fun space opera.

Horse cavalry was successfully used in WWII for certain operations by less mechanized armies, but its use became more and more limited, due to its role being taken over by mechanized vehicles, its vulnerability to air power, and the fact that fewer and fewer people were learning to ride horses. It was considered effective by certain combatants, though others phased it out. Not really relevant to the point I am making because 19th century examples would serve just as well for the point I am making, but I wanted to be accurate. Read up if you want to know more.

On the last point, I agree they would have stockpiles of TL 15 equipment. However, if you accept the premise that there are worlds lower than TL 15 then you seem to be asserting these worlds must have unlimited amounts of TL 15 gear in their frontier warehouses. Otherwise, their limited stockpiles will run out at some point. Or be blown up or captured by Zhodani. Once the Zhodani have your magic TL 15 warehouses that provide unlimited equipment, you'll be in trouble. However, if you put those magic bottomless warehouses behind the lines where the Zhodani can't get them, then you're back to the logistics problem - you have to ship it to the front line. More likely, you have a certain amount of gear on hand, and when you run out, or it gets destroyed, you might try to ship in more but you will get disruptions, at which point you either surrender or rely on local production.

 

[MasterGwydion]

If it were the case that you could turn out new equipment with a few TL 15 makers, then there would not be anything but TL 15 worlds in the Imperium. You can plausibly argue that it should be like that, since by the time period of the game we will probably have achieved a post-scarcity society, but that is not the premise of the game. TL 15 factories for military production on lower TL worlds are a plausible partial solution, and there is support in Traveller canon, but those will only work by shipping in lots of inputs from TL 15 worlds (otherwise we are doing away with the premise that some (most) worlds are lower tech)

Indeed during the industrial revolution the pace of change accelerated. If you want to assume it will stay like it is now, we'll be at TL 1000 by the time of the FFW. Which is totally plausible, in fact in my opinion it is more likely to be what happens if mankind actually survives that long, but it is also not the premise of the game, mainly because it wouldn't be a fun space opera.

Horse cavalry was successfully used in WWII for certain operations by less mechanized armies, but its use became more and more limited, due to its role being taken over by mechanized vehicles, its vulnerability to air power, and the fact that fewer and fewer people were learning to ride horses. It was considered effective by certain combatants, though others phased it out. Not really relevant to the point I am making because 19th century examples would serve just as well for the point I am making, but I wanted to be accurate. Read up if you want to know more.

On the last point, I agree they would have stockpiles of TL 15 equipment. However, if you accept the premise that there are worlds lower than TL 15 then you seem to be asserting these worlds must have unlimited amounts of TL 15 gear in their frontier warehouses. Otherwise, their limited stockpiles will run out at some point. Or be blown up or captured by Zhodani. Once the Zhodani have your magic TL 15 warehouses that provide unlimited equipment, you'll be in trouble. However, if you put those magic bottomless warehouses behind the lines where the Zhodani can't get them, then you're back to the logistics problem - you have to ship it to the front line. More likely, you have a certain amount of gear on hand, and when you run out, or it gets destroyed, you might try to ship in more but you will get disruptions, at which point you either surrender or rely on local production.

What you seem to be failing to grasp is Capitalism and the difference between military spending and household spending.

The military doesn't care how much it costs. I am sure Patton tanks are much cheaper than the M-1, but you don't see the US using Pattons. From 1979 to 1997 Pattons went from the primary armor of the US Army to being non-existent and replaced with the M-1. 18 years from development completion to fully replacing the Patton.

I also know plenty of people who can't afford the best. My wife uses a manual can opener, manual meat grinder. Most people here drive motorcycles or scooters instead of cars, because they can't afford them. You never see that with the military.

So, if I can buy a TL-6 house for $10,000 or a TL-15 house for $1,000,000 and I only make $15,000 a year? Which am I buying? That is the difference between civilian and military spending. Also, civilians don't have to worry about their purchases being resistant to weapons.

As for transportation? You seem to have forgotten what the "Subsidized" in "Subsidized Merchant" stands for.

 

[Vormaerin]

What manufacturing at TL15 is like, why some worlds are lower tech, what "lower tech" even means in a space faring trade federation, and a bunch of other factors that we would need the answer to are, in fact, not known and no one in Traveller publishing has tried to answer them effectively.

There should, imho, be a provincial army of locally equipped units with standards designed to theoretically (hah) allow some level of effective integration with the Imperial Army. IIRC, some of the press releases about the insurgency on Efate back in the 1980s denied that *regular Army* units were being deployed there.

The actual Imperial Army is not scattered all over every world in the Imperium, just like the Imperial Navy isn't. It's probably concentrated on worlds with ongoing conflicts, fortress worlds, and higher tech worlds that serve as logistical hubs. The FFW game does not suggest that the Imperial Army's main units are some absolutely enormous force relative to the area it protects. Quite the contrary.

It seems quite reasonable to me that they have a substantial (but not infinite or ubiquitous) force in being equipped at the current state of the Art (TL 15). There are enough TL 15 worlds and enough portable manufacturing enclave capability to do that.

Will a protracted conflict on the Imperial Fringe lead to localized force degradation due to logistical issues? Most likely. Does that have anything to do with the state of the forces in being during peacetime? Only tangentially, in that there is probably some plan for dealing with these expected logistical problems. It's not like this is the first Frontier War the Imperium has fought.

But none of that leads me to think the Imperium would deliberately equip its units in an obsolete and ineffective (as best as can be determined by the game mechanics available to us) manner to fight it's major opponent.

The US may spend most of its time beating up third world countries and irregular insurgencies, but it still has to equip its military to fight proper militaries like China and Russia. The Imperium would be the same way.

 

[Condottiere]

You can always try to figure exactly how many Imperium citizens are in the military at any point in time, and how many of those are in frontline units.

 

[Tforbes]

here is a question I will pose for those of you better are creating things from scratch better than I.

Besides cost, would there be any mechanical benefit to manufacturing TL-12 equipment at TL-15?

Basically, an assault rifle made and designed in 2025 would perform better than one made in 1920 despite the qualifying criteria being the same (30 round magazine and Auto 2

Could a TL12 Imperial rifle, built at TL15 be improved enough to be effective on the battlefield but not be different enough to qualify as a TL15 weapon because the underlying technology is TL12?

 

[Vormaerin]

It would have to do more damage or have more AP to be effective, so it would (in game terms) be a different weapon or a higher TL version of the weapon (like how laser rifle has two different TL versions).

But beyond that, it's quite likely that the TL15 version would have substantial integration to battlespace management technologies or other digital enhancements. So, while the base weapon might be TL 12, the ammunition and accessories in game terms may well be more advanced.

 

[Condottiere]

Sort of hard, without the tools to extrapolate.

It usually comes down to what you're facing, and what's sufficient to overcome that, specifically, body protection.

If Imperium Marines are dumb enough to do a frontal charge at a Sword Worlds stronghold, half the Sword Worlds troops would be aiming Javelin anti tank missile launchers at them.

 

[Tforbes]

or a higher TL version of the weapon (like how laser rifle has two different TL versions).

yea... I was looking at the slug weapon section so temporarily forgot that was a thing that already existed.

 

[Sigtrygg]

If it were the case that you could turn out new equipment with a few TL 15 makers, then there would not be anything but TL 15 worlds in the Imperium.

The same way there are nothing but first world high standard of living countries here on Earth...
a few months ago there was a rather excellent thread analysing the true nature of the Imperium, the bottom line is the nobility rakes in more profit by being able to sell TL15 goods to worlds that are restricted to lower TLs.

You can plausibly argue that it should be like that, since by the time period of the game we will probably have achieved a post-scarcity society, but that is not the premise of the game.

The Imperium should be post scarcity, it is the nobility and megacorporations that ensure it isn't so that the wealth flows into the pockets of the shareholders.

TL 15 factories for military production on lower TL worlds are a plausible partial solution, and there is support in Traveller canon, but those will only work by shipping in lots of inputs from TL 15 worlds (otherwise we are doing away with the premise that some (most) worlds are lower tech)

No reason the factory could not make every component needed if fed with the raw materials, provided by local resource gatherers who get paid a pittance... now where have I seen that model...

Indeed during the industrial revolution the pace of change accelerated. If you want to assume it will stay like it is now, we'll be at TL 1000 by the time of the FFW. Which is totally plausible, in fact in my opinion it is more likely to be what happens if mankind actually survives that long, but it is also not the premise of the game, mainly because it wouldn't be a fun space opera.

I agree.

Horse cavalry was successfully used in WWII for certain operations by less mechanized armies, but its use became more and more limited, due to its role being taken over by mechanized vehicles, its vulnerability to air power, and the fact that fewer and fewer people were learning to ride horses. It was considered effective by certain combatants, though others phased it out. Not really relevant to the point I am making because 19th century examples would serve just as well for the point I am making, but I wanted to be accurate. Read up if you want to know more.

I don't need to read up, and that is a disingenuous comment to throw into a good nature discussion.

Horses and other beasts of burden were used extensively during WWII, but they only saw limited battlefield deployment as combat assets, and the result was lots of dog meat.
For example the "Battle" of Izbushensky saw Italian cavalry win a tactical victory over a soviet rifle regiment. A cavalry success... until you read what happened next...

On the last point, I agree they would have stockpiles of TL 15 equipment. However, if you accept the premise that there are worlds lower than TL 15 then you seem to be asserting these worlds must have unlimited amounts of TL 15 gear in their frontier warehouses.

No, they have a limited amount, but sufficient to resupply the Army in the field for what is considered to be the likely duration of hostilities. They have fought four frontier wars, they have prepared for the fifth. The regular Army, including all necessary logistics are transported via the IN. Only certain world will be equipped to endure a protracted siege or ground war.

Otherwise, their limited stockpiles will run out at some point. Or be blown up or captured by Zhodani. Once the Zhodani have your magic TL 15 warehouses that provide unlimited equipment, you'll be in trouble.

Yes, the ordnance will run out, at which time you have to sue for peace or hope that the reinforcements from Deneb and Corridor turn up. But then, the Zhodani only have what they have brought with them...
Your local factories and logistical chain can only supply so much, but in a war where you don't know where the enemy is until months after they have landed two field armies on your world, local stockpile will have to be up to the job or you will be surrendering, which is modeled quite well in the FFW boardgame.
There is nothing magical to a supply depot.

However, if you put those magic bottomless warehouses behind the lines where the Zhodani can't get them, then you're back to the logistics problem - you have to ship it to the front line. More likely, you have a certain amount of gear on hand, and when you run out, or it gets destroyed, you might try to ship in more but you will get disruptions, at which point you either surrender or rely on local production.

What magic bottomless warhouses? Your ordnance is limited to what you have stockpiled based on your pre-war plans. Imperial Army assets are carried to battle by the Imperial Navy, along with their logistics. Local stockpiles are called or at least were called in S:3 waystations:

"lmperial Way Station. A base established for the repair, maintenance, and overhaul of lmperial equipment. It may include provisions for Army troop barracks, naval and scout ship overhauls, and intelligence operations."

The regular Imperial Army is almost absent for the start of the war, with regular units not turning up in numbers until the Imperial reinforcements become available.

The Zhodani have limits to their logistics too, if it comes down to a battle of attrition the Imperial side wins, and in the long term they have a much more robust logistical tail.

 

[MonsterX]

What magic bottomless warhouses? Your ordnance is limited to what you have stockpiled based on your pre-war plans. Imperial Army assets are carried to battle by the Imperial Navy, along with their logistics. Local stockpiles are called or at least were called in S:3 waystations:

"lmperial Way Station. A base established for the repair, maintenance, and overhaul of lmperial equipment. It may include provisions for Army troop barracks, naval and scout ship overhauls, and intelligence operations."

I'm not disputing that they have way stations etc., at which they presumably have TL 15 supplies, but at some point those will run dry. You are saying they fight until they run out of TL 15 munitions and then surrender. Instead of relying on local suppliers, just to make sure I understand you? It could happen I suppose. I find that unlikely, depending on the situation, especially if there is a lot of local weapons industry. We are talking about whole planets, with billions of people sometimes, lots of industry. Colonial forces fighting with TL 12 gear might feel a bit let down if the Imperial Marines all surrender once they run out of TL 15 coffee filters, while the Colonials soldier on, especially if they have plenty of supplies to loan the Marines.

 

[Vormaerin]

What are you talking about? No one suggested any such thing. That's such a gross mischaracterization of the argument as to be pointless to even respond to.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I'm not disputing that they have way stations etc., at which they presumably have TL 15 supplies, but at some point those will run dry. You are saying they fight until they run out of TL 15 munitions and then surrender. Instead of relying on local suppliers, just to make sure I understand you? It could happen I suppose. I find that unlikely, depending on the situation, especially if there is a lot of local weapons industry. We are talking about whole planets, with billions of people sometimes, lots of industry. Colonial forces fighting with TL 12 gear might feel a bit let down if the Imperial Marines all surrender once they run out of TL 15 coffee filters, while the Colonials soldier on, especially if they have plenty of supplies to loan the Marines.

May I ask where this Imperial Army that you think is waiting for the Zhodani to attack is?

Imperial doctrine is to use local forces to slow down the Zhodani until the reinforcements from other sectors make it to the battlefront. At the start of the war there is practically no regular Imperial Army in the Marches.

Once they arrive they are transported by IN assault squadrons and batrons and include their logistics for the battles they will fight.

In a similar way the Zhodani regular army only has the logistic they bring with them.

The Imperium continues to supply its army in the field, it has the necessary stockpiling and many worlds in nearby sectors that can mass produce anything needed.

As to falling back on TL12 or lower - they won't work with the TL15 gear. The Zhodani are TL14, they will roflstomp TL12 and lower forces

There are practically no Imperial Star Marines in the sector either, I posted the relative troop numbers a couple of pages back.

A TL12 coffee filter may be of use to a TL15 Imperial Marine regiment, but TL12 power cells, electronics, EW, missile and drone, useless from a compatibility standpoint and useless against TL14.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

For vehicles, I would say, wait for the new Vehicles Handbook to be released. That may help things out vehicle-wise.

Sorry, but what does the new Vehicle Handbook have to do with anything?

Stealth is an option in the current VH, what I found peculiar was that it isn’t used in the Armies of the FFW book designs.

Like I stated previously, the replacement designs Astrin & Trepida both have it in the Third Imperium book, and it would be a tremendous boon for the imperial army especially, given that their most likely opponent is technologically inferior.

Imagine not only being grav mobile and camouflaged, but also invisible to sensors!

 

[Tforbes]

ok everybody, I think we're all in agreement on the following facts:
1. Soldiers with TL-12 are not going to be much help in a straight fight against TL-14/15 soldiers.
2. The 3I is capable of providing equipment of TL-15 to the Imperial Army if / when it so desires. (With enough desire or political will, the 3I could do anything)

Now, that the book states the Imperial army is only equipped to TL-12 can have 2 distinct causes.

A. Out of universe - This was a mistake by Mongoose. It is inconsistent with previous lore AND is inconsistent with the direction Mongoose intends to go moving forward. They didn't notice or didn't care about this particular issue and thus it could / should be ignored and revised IYTU.

B. In universe - This is a canonical fact in Mongoose's Charted Space, whether due to incompetence, sabotage, negligence, profiteering, politics, etc. As a significant issue in the war, it can't / shouldn't be ignored and should instead by explained IYTU.

----------------------------

If you are in camp A, that's totally fine. You can disregard anything you don't agree with and hope or request that Mongoose retcons this in future publications. Everybody is fallible and makes mistakes. Nothing wrong with calling a mistake a mistake and throwing it out. (i'll never force anybody to eat the first pancake in a batch I make)

If you are in camp B, accept that you are coming into this with the goal of justifying something unlikely and unrealistic. Unlikely things happen all the time and reality can be pretty unrealistic sometimes. You will come up with an explanation that works for your personal suspension of disbelief (or your tables) but it may not stand up to too deep scrutiny.

I don't think any of the arguments here are going to convince anybody to jump from A to B or vice versa.

 

[Sigtrygg]

In the original boardgame the Zhodani have a tremendous initial advantage, but to win they have to achieve their victory conditions before the Imperials can get their reinforcements into play. They should also stear clear of Imperial troop and fleet concentrations, focus on taking as many worlds as possible as quickly as possible. Once the Imperial reinforcement arrive - massive armies of TL15 regular troops and all the colonial reserve forces - the game is in the balance. Once the Imperials get theri reinforment numbers up the have a couple of choices - retake worlds from teh Zhodani, or sweep into Zhodani space and take their worlds from them, then retake their worlds. At this stage a draw is likely declared as you how likely now being playing the game for three or more days real time

 

[Tforbes]

In the original boardgame the Zhodani have a tremendous initial advantage, but to win they have to achieve their victory conditions before the Imperials can get their reinforcements into play. They should also stear clear of Imperial troop and fleet concentrations, focus on taking as many worlds as possible as quickly as possible. Once the Imperial reinforcement arrive - massive armies of TL15 regular troops and all the colonial reserve forces - the game is in the balance. Once the Imperials get theri reinforment numbers up the have a couple of choices - retake worlds from teh Zhodani, or sweep into Zhodani space and take their worlds from them, then retake their worlds. At this stage a draw is likely declared as you how likely now being playing the game for three or more days real time

I've never had the chance to play (or even read the rules) but from what I've seen the game seems like it was a lot of fun. At least for a few games.

Would be cool if there was a VTT version which could properly enforce Fog of War / communication issues. Even a Play-by-Post game where actual moves are declared via DMs to a Referee and the whole war can only be understood after the game is over when we can watch it happen via simulation.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Sorry, but what does the new Vehicle Handbook have to do with anything?

Stealth is an option in the current VH, what I found peculiar was that it isn’t used in the Armies of the FFW book designs.

Like I stated previously, the replacement designs Astrin & Trepida both have it in the Third Imperium book, and it would be a tremendous boon for the imperial army especially, given that their most likely opponent is technologically inferior.

Imagine not only being grav mobile and camouflaged, but also invisible to sensors!

It has completely changed how vehicles are built, so anything printed in Armies will be outside of the rules in a matter of months. Although a vehicle book with tons of vehicles in it is being released as well, I think. If so, that may have the new versions of the vehicles from the book you just bought in it.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I think, as suggested, that there is a political reason for a TL12 Imperial Army could have a lot of juice. Will they get curb stomped? Yes, they will. Will there be political fallout? Also yes. Fun galore there.

The question if have is why they station the main army units so far from where they have to know the next fight is going to be? Anyone that is shocked that the Zho will attack hasn’t been paying attention. Why not have them stationed within a dozen parsecs of the border? Safe from immediate attack but close enough to respond. Or 20 parsecs if that is still too close.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I think, as suggested, that there is a political reason for a TL12 Imperial Army could have a lot of juice. Will they get curb stomped? Yes, they will. Will there be political fallout? Also yes. Fun galore there.

The question if have is why they station the main army units so far from where they have to know the next fight is going to be? Anyone that is shocked that the Zho will attack hasn’t been paying attention. Why not have them stationed within a dozen parsecs of the border? Safe from immediate attack but close enough to respond. Or 20 parsecs if that is still too close.

Maybe it is TL-12 now, and that was intentional. Maybe this is Mongoose's new thing instead of the Rebellion, or the Virus, or the Empress Wave. Maybe the whole area behind the claw falls to the Zhos and/or others. I would hate this storyline, but no more than others hate the Rebellion and such. lol