Armageddon for the Dilgar

[tneva82]

Well Mongoose is trying probably to keep ship # in some check.

It would probably add at most two variants each for the Hyperion and the Orion base, one each for the Nova, Oracle and Sagittarius. Hardly excessive.

And since Hyperion variants already exist at three different Priority Levels, I think the balancing pain might be bearable.

Couple more for Omega, several more here...Atleast currently it's norm to have LOTS of variations over single hull so why not in future

 

[tneva82]

And at least the DIlgar were really used to war, whereas the Minbari didnt know crap about tactis except a few good books. Having the most advanced warfleet in the galaxy (except first ones) does not promote new tactics.

Yeah right. They just happen to have 1/3 of their population in warrior caste who spend their time practicing AND fighting war.

Oh yeah. Minbari fight wars but don't learn from them...Yeah right.

 

[TenaciousB]

I can't speak for others but I do my best to treat everyone with the respect they have earned as an individual in my experience of them, their position in Mongoose's various official and unofficial structures notwithstanding. Yourself included. You have on ocassion in the past gone out of your way to be confrontational on these forums, this may or may not be affecting how people respond to/interpret your posts.

You make a lot of valid points there, LBH, but there is a lot of angry people on this thread - not just me - it certainly seems to me that I was singled out, probably because of our "spat" in the past. I can respect that - I've tried to be a valuable contributing member to this forum, but if you wanna dig up the dirt, that's fine by me.

Yes, I've been confrontational on these forums before - big deal. The issues I have with the game aren't aimed at anyone in particular. I'm sure a lot of people are like a dog with two of the proverbials for getting nice rule enhancements and new ships. I'm not one of the lucky ones. People can interpret whatever they like from what I say - at the end of the day, it's ME that got screwed over, just like a countless number of other players, and I should be able to air my views (with the utmost respect), regardless of what I've said in the past. Not all of us are the perfect individuals YOU seem to be, LBH :wink: .

Just as a matter of interest - did ANY playtesters even mention Drakh or Dilgar additional ships during the testing of this expansion?

I also think its about time some of the other Dilgar and Drakh players came out from the shadows (pardon the pun) and told the community what they think about being left out of the expansion.
Let the company know what YOU think - it's good to let them know how you feel.
After all, it's your game too.

 

[H]

I can't speak for others but I do my best to treat everyone with the respect they have earned as an individual in my experience of them, their position in Mongoose's various official and unofficial structures notwithstanding. Yourself included. You have on ocassion in the past gone out of your way to be confrontational on these forums, this may or may not be affecting how people respond to/interpret your posts.

You make a lot of valid points there, LBH, but there is a lot of angry people on this thread - not just me - it certainly seems to me that I was singled out, probably because of our "spat" in the past. I can respect that - I've tried to be a valuable contributing member to this forum, but if you wanna dig up the dirt, that's fine by me.

Yes, I've been confrontational on these forums before - big deal. The issues I have with the game aren't aimed at anyone in particular. I'm sure a lot of people are like a dog with two of the proverbials for getting nice rule enhancements and new ships. I'm not one of the lucky ones. People can interpret whatever they like from what I say - at the end of the day, it's ME that got screwed over, just like a countless number of other players, and I should be able to air my views (with the utmost respect), regardless of what I've said in the past. Not all of us are the perfect individuals YOU seem to be, LBH :wink: .

Just as a matter of interest - did ANY playtesters even mention Drakh or Dilgar additional ships during the testing of this expansion?

I also think its about time some of the other Dilgar and Drakh players came out from the shadows (pardon the pun) and told the community what they think about being left out of the expansion.
Let the company know what YOU think - it's good to let them know how you feel.
After all, it's your game too.

It sucks balls, the Mothership should be armageddon, it's supposed to be many many kilometres long, and hold cruisers as well as raiders, stupid decision to make it a warship really. I feel sorry for Dilgar players a little, they shouldn't really get an armageddon ship, their tech level wasn't up to it really, but it would have been nice for them to get something, after all, they had several ships in battle level, which shouldn't really exist either. Thinng is mate, for whatever reason, people have decided you are the target, you have made some valid points and got truly sniped at. I made my point many pages ago, and it could be perceived as a tad inflamatory, but received minimal response, so yeah, you seem to have been singled out for harsh!

 

[Burger]

Also, still nobody has given me an answer as to why there's so much hostility towards the Drakh and Dilgar getting a look in in Armageddon. It certainly wouldn't hurt anybody if these things had been included, and sure as hell would have hurt a lot less for those of us who feel shunned for having the audacity to play and support new races to the game!

I don't think its hostility towards Dilgar and Drakh being included. On the contrary, I think most people would have liked them both to get new stuff in Armageddon. Myself included, I'd have loved to see the mothership upgraded and boosted to Armageddon, and new ships and stuff.

The hostility comes from the attitude you came to this thread with. "Its not fair the world hates me i am going to complain and shout and swear lots". The fact is, Armageddon is Armageddon, it contains very little new Drakh/Dilgar stuff, and no amount of forum-posting is going to change that. I do sympathize with you (especially as I am considering getting a Drakh fleet too...) but it's gone to press, like it or lump it.

 

[TenaciousB]

Definitely seems like that, Hiff - I seem to be public enemy number 1 for speaking my mind lol. That's ok - I can take it - I'm a big boy. :lol:

But Burger, there hasn't been hostility from this side of the fence - there have been a lot of questions asked that haven't been answered satisfactorally. The main crux of the problem has been people just going on and on about how easily an armageddon ship can be dropped. I couldn't care less how easy it is - the fact is that my race got eff-all in this expansion, and it has been explicitly stated that the Dilgar won't ever get an Armageddon-level ship.

You made a very, very good point (one of the best of the thread imo) very early in this topic about how the Armageddon PL is purely for size and power comparison, and not about the use of new technology. This point has been largely ignored by most of the posters, mainly because it seems that they are not reading the posts, and would just rather shout at us poor underlings, because we're not allowed to tell it like it is.

 

[Burger]

TenB, I was talking about Pirv, not you... his post (2nd from bottom on page 2) is where the hostility and bad language started. Until then everyone was happily discussing it and agreeing that Dilgar should get more stuff.

 

[TenaciousB]

Yeah, I see that now, but you have to understand where that stemmed from - people just aren't reading the posts properly and just come out with "but armageddon level ships bite" and "this is how you beat them".

I'm sure you're pretty annoyed about your point about Armageddon-level being ignored - problem is, sometimes you have to shout to get heard.

 

[thePirv]

TenB, I was talking about Pirv, not you... his post (2nd from bottom on page 2) is where the hostility and bad language started. Until then everyone was happily discussing it and agreeing that Dilgar should get more stuff.

OK, so maybe i wasn't as tactful as i could have been. But i was very angry for reasons that have been raised before. And that was just one post. Since then, for the most part, my statements have been calm, without anger and simply arguing the point.
Yes, i understand that people will react very negatively to such an outburst, but people aren't only having a go about that, there definitely seems to be some quite angry arguments as to why either or both the Drakh and Dilgar shouldn't get new ships. In particulr the constant vehement arguments along the lines of ;

"The Dilgar are extinct, so they should never get anything else. Also, the ships aren't cannon because they're higher than raid level and AoG say they shouldn't be!"

There definitely seems to be a lot more resistance than my initial (and in hindsight rather poorly phrased) post would garner.

 

[Burger]

"Also, the ships aren't cannon because they're higher than raid level and AoG say they shouldn't be!"

None of the ships are canon, because they weren't in the TV series or films or other official JMS publicatons... apart from Deathwealkers ship, was that a Dilgar ship or just an EA shuttle or something?

 

[TenaciousB]

"Also, the ships aren't cannon because they're higher than raid level and AoG say they shouldn't be!"

None of the ships are canon, because they weren't in the TV series or films or other official JMS publicatons... apart from Deathwealkers ship, was that a Dilgar ship or just an EA shuttle or something?

Could have been an EA shuttle or a Minbari flyer - can't remember :wink:

 

[thePirv]

"Also, the ships aren't cannon because they're higher than raid level and AoG say they shouldn't be!"

None of the ships are canon, because they weren't in the TV series or films or other official JMS publicatons... apart from Deathwealkers ship, was that a Dilgar ship or just an EA shuttle or something?

Yes, i know that's my point. It doesn't change the fact that people are still trying to make that argument for Dilgar not getting anything new. The whole point of that post was to show the sheer banality of that argument.

And it was a Minbari Flyer that Deathwalker was in, on loan from the Swordwinds.

 

[Voronesh]

And at least the DIlgar were really used to war, whereas the Minbari didnt know crap about tactis except a few good books. Having the most advanced warfleet in the galaxy (except first ones) does not promote new tactics.

Yeah right. They just happen to have 1/3 of their population in warrior caste who spend their time practicing AND fighting war.

Oh yeah. Minbari fight wars but don't learn from them...Yeah right.

Practice makes good, experience makes better.
Fighting war against whom?? scusie Shadow war 1000 years ago? Right. Germans have a great military cause of WW1 and 2? Sry just Laughing my ass off...... There were maybe some minor engagenment, but nothing has been mentioned about anyhting in an area that might need actually an effort. Using overwhelimg force does not promote experience.

Having a whole race bent on annihilating every other race makes for a huge military as well. Plus having continuing raids and just having smashed half the LONAWmakes for good experience.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Didn't Matt say that the Dilgar and Drakh would see expansions in Signs and Portents, which would then be collected into books annually along with the other ACtA stuff published there?

Unless I miss my guess, that means Dilgar and Drakh players get their expansions for free. You can just download S&P freely and then print off the relevent pages for use at clubs or whatever.

Given that situation, I fail to see the problem. You might have to wait a while for new stuff, but you're big kids. Be patient.

 

[TenaciousB]

Didn't Matt say that the Dilgar and Drakh would see expansions in Signs and Portents, which would then be collected into books annually along with the other ACtA stuff published there?

Unless I miss my guess, that means Dilgar and Drakh players get their expansions for free. You can just download S&P freely and then print off the relevent pages for use at clubs or whatever.

Given that situation, I fail to see the problem. You might have to wait a while for new stuff, but you're big kids. Be patient.

that's not the point - I'm glad that the problem is going to be addressed eventually via S&P, but that's not an adequate solution - I would guess that a lot of races will receive things this way, so it's hardly unique to those 2 races. The problem is that the races shouldn't have been left out in the first place. It's blatant discrimination towards the (clearly small) demographic of Dilgar and Drakh players, who feel left out in the cold and under-represented. As someone else pointed out, if it was the Minbari or Narn that got left out, all hell would break loose.

We just want the same respect and opportunities as the other players. Not much to ask for. After all, we're just as loyal as the rest of the players out there.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Nobody here ha an answer to give you. Only the Mongoose staff know why this is the situation with the Armageddon book, and since you already asked Matt and received you answer, banging on about it won't change anything.

 

[Burger]

that's not the point - I'm glad that the problem is going to be addressed eventually via S&P, but that's not an adequate solution

Err sorry but what is the solution then? Armageddon has gone to print, it can't be changed or expanded now.

 

[TenaciousB]

Nobody here ha an answer to give you. Only the Mongoose staff know why this is the situation with the Armageddon book, and since you already asked Matt and received you answer, banging on about it won't change anything.

You call it "banging on" - I call it "voicing an opinion", which seems to be frowned upon on this "discussion" board. There are countless threads on this board, that would seem just as trivial as this one, yet the people who are genuinely screwed over seem to be getting the flak, for posting about a real subject that is close to their heart. And I'll make the point again - if I was part of a specific group, the flak wouldn't happen at all.

I'm protecting my investment - if the Dilgar get left out of this expansion, who's to say if it'll happen in the next one, and the one after that? Where does it end?

 

[TenaciousB]

that's not the point - I'm glad that the problem is going to be addressed eventually via S&P, but that's not an adequate solution

Err sorry but what is the solution then? Armageddon has gone to print, it can't be changed or expanded now.

Well, maybe I should have worded that better. I meant to say that, whilst it is a very good solution, it won't be exculsive to the Dilgar and Drakh players. Sorry if it came off as being ungrateful, which I'm not.

 

[thePirv]

Players are expected to buy a major publication to keep up to date with the game. That major publication does cater to some more than others, and this is pretty much always the case and not a problem. The problem is that it clearly does not cater to some players with the exception of the few new rules, and frankly, £15 for a few pages of new rules is a bit much.

The point of continuing this discussion, at least for me, is to make Mongoose sit up, take notice and fix this problem now, not in a few months to a years time for the Drakh and NEVER for the Dilgar. Get something into S&P as soon as possible to redress the disproportionate representation and to ensure that in future the MAJOR releases cater to everybody and not just the majority. Every race, with the exception of the Drakh, Dilgar and Raiders has access to an Armageddon level ship. Is it such a crime to ask that these races get equal treatment.

Hell, even allowing the Drakh to use a Centauri Adira would've been a step in the right direction, at least as far as the Drakh are concerned. And while the Raiders get the Ghosts of Omelos, are those ships tournament legal? And what of any Drakh/Dilgar ships published in S&P? Will they be tournament legal? All we want is to be included in something that everyone else now seems to take for granted.