Armageddon 2089 - New Ideas

[MongooseMatt]

Hi guys,

First off, don't get too excited! A revision of A2089 is still a ways off yet and we are just bandying ideas about at the moment. But what would you think of the following;

1. Slight revision of the setting, so we are in the middle of actual Armageddon, rather than just a few ops here and there.

2. A box set, containing: three books (the rulebook, the setting book and a Mek spec guide), reference sheets and loads of folding/stand up counters/figures of all the Meks present in the box set.

3. The best 10-20 designs from the original A2089 will make it to the new game. All the rest will be redesigned (think more Stealth Fighter in looks, and less Volkswagen).

4. Full miniatures support - Each Mek comes in its own mini-box set with a bunch of different weapons options. They need their own box sets, as the miniatures (plastic and/or metal) will be around 6-8 inches high. There will be parts packs available to seriously customise Meks and maybe built in magnets to quickly swap arms and such like. All Meks will be in scale with each other.

5. The rules will be fairly quick and easy to play (no SFB here!) but will retain A2089's more unique ideas such as electronic warfare, biological weapons and tac-nukes.

6. Full novel and graphic novel support for the setting, with a solid, advancing timeline.

7. A real-time worldwide campaign where you will actually be able to fight for your own country or don the role of a mercenary. The course of the A2089 war will depend on you (this one may not be pie in the sky - we are working on something very similar right now for a different game).

As I said, just throwing ideas around right now. But if you want to influence the game's developemnt, speak now!

 

[Neo]

Being a fan of 2089 I'd have to say likeing the sounds of this..its giving me that classic BTech vibe in its scope and direction... though I hope 2089 isnt losing its Roleplaying element in favour of a pure tabletop game one?

Anyway colour me interested

 

[LoneStranger]

I'd say take the story and shift it to the war heating up, and give players a chance to affect the game world. Other than that it sounds good.

 

[Neo]

I'd say take the story and shift it to the war heating up, and give players a chance to affect the game world. Other than that it sounds good.

I'd agree one of the popular facets of Battletech was the constantly evolving wars and political maneovrings and dealings, battle of significance, losses of significance. As well as developing things technologically as the timeline progresses and discoveries are made.

It's also good when events dont always "just" concentrate on the major powers, including the minor groups and mercs too.

and citing the Clans as an example its also nice to throw the odd curveball now and then and have enemies that are completely of an unexpected nature (though not necessarily alien) to throw into the mix.

I quite like the idea of bigger Mech minatures (6-8 inches) myself, be a lot easier to paint for a start

 

[Deeman]

1. A setting revision would be ok, but it probably won't change the type of game or game encounters played. Running clashing armies under D20 rules can take several days.

2. I'm a fan of one big hardback book myself. The less searching and flipping through different books I have to do the better. From a roleplaying aspect of course.

3-4. I like the idea of the redesign especially if miniatures are in the works. I like many of the designs like the minimal, scourge, and footsoldier. A lot of the Ipex and Volksmecha models from the rulebook are less appealing.

5. Does this imply a rules change, a rpg to wargame rule shift, or a polishing of the present rules? I would seriously hope for just the polish. A:2089 has a unique D20 niche with lots of potential. The wargame market for this genre is, at the least, well occuppied.

6. I'd buy a graphic novel.

7. Sounds like a great promotional tool and fun for players as well.

This game really works for me as I've always had a problem with the role of armor in AC in D20 games, and I'm not a fan of transforming samuri head dress anime mecha. I really appreciate what you Mongoose guys have done thus far. Keep up the good work.

 

[Garet]

sounds good with some thoughts

1. the new settings book would need to be available separate. unless the rules will be simpler and faster than in the players book.

2. I think the 6-8 inch tall mechs might be a bit much as i've heard the shadowrun duels didn't sell well because of them being so big. people bought them more for looks than the game. might check into this.

3. i would want this to be compable with the orginal book. I have the main book plus frontiers and the soldier book. plan on buying the tank book soon. B5 comes first though :wink:

if i think of more i'll post

thanks

 

[Draco Argentum]

1. Advancing the timeline is a good idea.

3. Good plan. No offense to the artists but some of the current ones really don't fit. The Maximillian's armour plate is way too bumpy. (Same for the Roland and Charlemagne.) It would be cool if the current trend in military vehicles of stealthier design was copied for meks. Bonus points for details like zig-zag edges on doors.

4. Sounds cool.

5. The scan and EW sections are good. Most of the combat section is nice as is, what level of changes are you looking at?

 

[papaiggy]

Ok here is my .50 which is muchmore then .01, but I digress.

First off don't turn into some other mini/wargame company from the U.K. that shall remain nameless. 6-8 inch figs is a much. Most people didn't like the ShadowRun figs because they suddenly realized they were playing with dolls. Secondly I paint my figs. You have any idea how much paint I have to use to cover a fig 6-8 inchs tall? If your trying to stay in scale it's understandable that Warmeks are going to be muckin huge. So maybe knock the scale down to 15mm or so. A 32mm scale Warmek would be a rather lot of metal or plastic to lug around.

I absolutely agree that continueing the timeline is a great idea. What I don't want to see is a new world setting book every 2 weeks, this would however be a great way for yall to push sales on Signs and Portents. Already been that route with more then a few gaming companies.

If you want a diverse and changeing world I recommend you go with the living campaign idea. Tons of people play Greyhawk and really engoy it. You already have a great web sight would be easy to support a living campaign. Look to the Living Greyhawk Campaign for some ideas.

That's about all I can think of at the moment. I think you have a pretty good following of people who will buy and play A2089. The only way that is going to blow up in your face is if you burn or just out right forget who pays to play. In this day and age the meaning of Customer Service has become a dirty word. The fact that your willing to listen to the players and ask there opinions is going to keep me buying your products.

Thank You

Papa Iggy

 

[Elfman]

6-8 inch figs is a much. Most people didn't like the ShadowRun figs because they suddenly realized they were playing with dolls. Secondly I paint my figs. You have any idea how much paint I have to use to cover a fig 6-8 inchs tall? If your trying to stay in scale it's understandable that Warmeks are going to be muckin huge. So maybe knock the scale down to 15mm or so. A 32mm scale Warmek would be a rather lot of metal or plastic to lug around.

I agree completely.

6-8 inches is way too big for a miniature. That's a giant-ature. To keep the prices reasonable they'd have to be plastic. I mean, can you imagine how much a single 7-inch tall metal mek figure will cost, much less a whole squad? And once you've bought the player's meks, what about their enemies? And even plastic would be expensive in that size.

Cost aside, my biggest problem with Mek models that big is finding space to actually use them. I already don't have enough table space just using the 2-3 inch tall Mechwarrior Dark Age clickables for Meks. What is the average distance at which combat starts in A2089? Often it's measured in kilometers, which would require a ballroom if you use 6-8 inch tall meks.

Seriously, as much as I like A2089 and have most of the books for it, I'd never fork over the money that it will cost to get enough figures to play if they were that big. Honestly, I'd probably just use keep on using my stash of Mechwarrior figures and calling them WarMeks. If you want to actually sell Mek miniatures as something other than dust-attracting desktop collectables, then you need to drop the size (and therefore the cost) down.

:idea: I'd suggest making them of such a size that their bases match the standard (is it 35mm?) hex-map grid, or not much bigger. One of the best parts about A2089 is the realistic combat with realistic encounter distances, and you can't do that with the big figures.

Comments anyone?

 

[Neo]

6-8 inches is way too big for a miniature. That's a giant-ature. To keep the prices reasonable they'd have to be plastic. I mean, can you imagine how much a single 7-inch tall metal mek figure will cost, much less a whole squad? And once you've bought the player's meks, what about their enemies? And even plastic would be expensive in that size.

Well I dont know about you but I'd love 6-8 inch mech mini's myself, wouldn't take that much paint to do them up and paint is not expensive anyway unless you buy your painting supplies from that other <cough> GW </cough> company

As for cost why do you think it would be expensive? Its almost certain anything that size would be entuirely plastic, much easier to put together, lot more durable that the softer lead based mixes, easier to paint individual parts and then put togther... FAr FAr FAR more detailed. something plastic like that i'd imagine would be about £5 or 6, which is no more expensive than things substantially smaller from that other company.

As for using them they'd fit right in on any table top type game, I dont know about you guys but we dont use hexes anyway, just a standard distance for a hex and then using measuring rulers to work out how far things can move.

 

[papaiggy]

Well since you took the time to make it personal guess I can respond in kind.

I don't know were you buy your paint but I spend at the best prices I can find $2-3 US per bottle 17.5 ML of paint. You pay for quality.

As for fig cost, I think your prices are about right give or take a few dollars. $12-15 US. Per fig. About the price you would pay for an all pewter fig half the size.

Scale with a miniature that large is going to be more of a problem then you think. I agree with the fellow who said they should try and stick to the 35mm hexes. You can get some very large maps with that scale. We already run out of room all the time in combats playing normal D&D. "Oh well he is actually 300 hexes that way." Not a problem. But if your trying to make a war game/ RPG then I think you should be able to at least get some of peope shooting one another on the same map. Otherwise facing hit locations etc becomes a large nightmare of logistics and paperwork.

I have played A LOT of wargames, and have written more then a few. Granted really big "miniatures?" would be pretty nifty. And maybe they could do a side run of collectable ones for those who want the really big ones. But they just aren't practicle from a gaming stand point.

Papa Iggy

Not A Mongoose Playtester Just A Loud Mouth American.

 

[Golem2176]

2. A box set, containing: three books (the rulebook, the setting book and a Mek spec guide), reference sheets and loads of folding/stand up counters/figures of all the Meks present in the box set.

Well, I wasn't too interested in Armageddon 2089, but this box set caught my eye! Quickly, Mongoose is become my favorite third party d20 publisher, out doing Sword Sorcery Studio. I look forward to seeing more stuff on A2089. Any chance of a "pocket guide" for this game?

 

[Neo]

Well since you took the time to make it personal guess I can respond in kind.

Urrrgh? <add scooby doo'esque sound effect> when did I make anything personal??? I was merely respeonding to elfmans post. Down Boy! :shock:

I don't know were you buy your paint but I spend at the best prices I can find $2-3 US per bottle 17.5 ML of paint. You pay for quality.

I pay a little less about 75p to £1 for the same quantity of paint, which isnt a lot in this day and age. Heck you can pay that for a soft drink over here, and get a heck of lot less use out of it :lol:

As for fig cost, I think your prices are about right give or take a few dollars. $12-15 US. Per fig. About the price you would pay for an all pewter fig half the size.

Heh you yanks might pay that, but bare in mind us brits are used to paying through the nose for most things, what you consider expensive is about what were used to paying ...hmm that would be funny if it wasnt sadly true too

Scale with a miniature that large is going to be more of a problem then you think. I agree with the fellow who said they should try and stick to the 35mm hexes. You can get some very large maps with that scale. We already run out of room all the time in combats playing normal D&D. "Oh well he is actually 300 hexes that way." Not a problem. But if your trying to make a war game/ RPG then I think you should be able to at least get some of peope shooting one another on the same map. Otherwise facing hit locations etc becomes a large nightmare of logistics and paperwork.[/quote[

I seriously doubt it would be an issue, most WH40k games for example can use vehicles that arou in the sizes were talking about and they are popular and non problematic. If anything it will take up less room in comparison for although a Predator Tank may take up 6-8 inches in length a warmek is going to only have that in height...so unless folks are playing in rooms with extremely low ceilings it is hardly untenable.

I suspect the reason Mongoose want 6-8 inches is because then they will be in scale with their 30mm <cough> 28 </cough> miniatures for characters etc.. that way they wont have to mess with 2 different scales of figure. If you reduce the Meks to 30mm then the character figures for the game have to be reduced accordingly, which means a whole new scale and range of figure moulds, that also wont have anywhere near as good a detail.

[quote[I have played A LOT of wargames, and have written more then a few. Granted really big "miniatures?" would be pretty nifty. And maybe they could do a side run of collectable ones for those who want the really big ones. But they just aren't practicle from a gaming stand point.

I've played far more than I care to recall too. but as noted above there are other considerations to consider beside hex size.. such as requiring an entirely new line of moulds and figures for characters if meks end up shrunken to 30mm... and Epic in that sense didnt ring my bell when the other company did it...not all of us old fogies have telescopic vision you know :lol:

 

[Elfman]

Thanks on the cost update. $12-15 is still a bit high for Meks, as that would be 10 x $12 = $120 minimum just for figures to play a 5 player game (with the same 5 enemy Meks over and over and over again ). Plus the cost of the boxed set for rules.... It's expensive, but within the realm of marketable. I might pay that... but as I said before, I'd probably just buy the boxed set and play with paper markers or other figs.

Now that I've conceeded that I'm a cheap bastard, on to my main concern... SIZE.

I've actually found it very rare that I need both characters and Meks running around on the same tactical map. Sure it happens occasionally, and it would be nice to have Meks in the 35m scale (and thus 6-8 inches tall)...

... but it would also be nice to have a ballroom-sized room I could devote to wargaming. This is however very unrealistic to expect of me and 99.9% of other gamers.

IMO, having proper scale for encounter distances is far more important than having proper scale between characters and Meks. And I still haven't heard anyone pipe in on how they would solve the kilometer+ encounter range issue with the larger minis, which I said in my earlier post was my main concern.

Oh, BTW, I like the boxed set idea.

 

[papaiggy]

Just have to increase the size of hexes. All the movement is given in meters pretty easy to just make the hex bigger. Or bar that 1 inch = blah meters. Granted your kind of squishing things down but that's not so bad when you think about it.

Papa Iggy

 

[Neo]

I've actually found it very rare that I need both characters and Meks running around on the same tactical map. Sure it happens occasionally, and it would be nice to have Meks in the 35m scale (and thus 6-8 inches tall)...

That is the quintessential difference between say Battletech and Armageddon though isnt it. In battletech the enphasis was on the meks.. the pilots came later. But with 2089 the emphasis is on the pilot and the Meks are just the supporting characters. A2089 is a roleplay first and a wargame second, so characters have just as much if not as much importance as mek miniatures.

... but it would also be nice to have a ballroom-sized room I could devote to wargaming. This is however very unrealistic to expect of me and 99.9% of other gamers.

You dont need a ballroom, heck my lot play in a dining room on a 4' by 8' table surface and it is masses of room.

IMO, having proper scale for encounter distances is far more important than having proper scale between characters and Meks. And I still haven't heard anyone pipe in on how they would solve the kilometer+ encounter range issue with the larger minis, which I said in my earlier post was my main concern.

It isnt a big deal at long distances you just either increase the size of heaxes or keep a record of distance off map on paper, making note of range penalties is easy enough, as i noting how long till someone can cover a certain distance and therefore actually be on the closeup map (i.e Table).

Oh, BTW, I like the boxed set idea.

yup I liked Boxed sets..though I dread trying to find somewhere to put another one LOL

 

[Deeman]

I have to agree that 6-8 inch meks would be impracticle for anything short of a statue in front of your character sheet as you mapped actual position on some grid paper. Unless Mongoose is reducing ranges for a wargame version of A:2089. In which case I would worry for this game. Consumers demand a high standard in miniature quality these days and there is lots of competition. Mongoose had better be ready to make a considerable investment in any models it puts out or it is destined to fail.

In short I think Mongoose should stay the course on A:2089 unless it is really unprofitable or something. A supplement containing several vehicles, and aircraft/spacecraft of each faction would be welcome. Naval units? A second edition of the rule book with adequate clarifications and needed rule additions would be snatched up by me.

The use of the OGL and D20 rules has worked well thus far and I think letting some other companies worry about miniatures and other peripheral accessories would be wise.

..but then again nothing risked, nothing gained. :wink:

 

[greenjelly]

Hi guys,

First off, don't get too excited! A revision of A2089 is still a ways off yet and we are just bandying ideas about at the moment. But what would you think of the following;

1. Slight revision of the setting, so we are in the middle of actual Armageddon, rather than just a few ops here and there.

2. A box set, containing: three books (the rulebook, the setting book and a Mek spec guide), reference sheets and loads of folding/stand up counters/figures of all the Meks present in the box set.

3. The best 10-20 designs from the original A2089 will make it to the new game. All the rest will be redesigned (think more Stealth Fighter in looks, and less Volkswagen).

4. Full miniatures support - Each Mek comes in its own mini-box set with a bunch of different weapons options. They need their own box sets, as the miniatures (plastic and/or metal) will be around 6-8 inches high. There will be parts packs available to seriously customise Meks and maybe built in magnets to quickly swap arms and such like. All Meks will be in scale with each other.

5. The rules will be fairly quick and easy to play (no SFB here!) but will retain A2089's more unique ideas such as electronic warfare, biological weapons and tac-nukes.

6. Full novel and graphic novel support for the setting, with a solid, advancing timeline.

7. A real-time worldwide campaign where you will actually be able to fight for your own country or don the role of a mercenary. The course of the A2089 war will depend on you (this one may not be pie in the sky - we are working on something very similar right now for a different game).

As I said, just throwing ideas around right now. But if you want to influence the game's developemnt, speak now!

I havent bought the core book yet, I only own Earth 2089 which I bought because I really like the setting, I will pick up the core book eventually, but its expensive so it will have to wait until I have the money!

I think I prefer everything being on the brink of all out war, rather than actual war, as it gives you WAY more options when deciding on the type of game you want to run. This is personal preference though, and I guess you can alter the timeline yourself, I just prefer the idea of a "cold war" style environment as if nukes start flying its pretty much all over.

The box set is a great idea, I would absolutely buy this, would the core book still be in hardcover?

You have a guaranteed sale here for any novels or graphic novels on the setting.

For miniatures, I think plastic normal miniature scale ones would work WAY better, 6 to 8 inches high looks cool, but nobody has the space to play out a game of it with something that big unfortunately!

 

[Götterfunke]

Hi, everybody!

As an old A2089 fan I want to say something about the new A2089 concept.

ad1.) It`s a cool idea to concentrate the setting on the middle of the A2089 war!

ad2.) I like the idea of publishing a box set - in my opinion this set should contain a rulebook , a setting book and of course a technical readout like those classic battletech TRO - describing developments, famous battles and pilots of certain warmeks and - of course - a cool rendered image of every fighting machine! But with the starter pack there should be some `starter` machines available. So I don`t want to buy a big box set, but I cannot play, because I`ve to wait several weeks for those single mek packs.

ad3.) It`s okay, that 10 meks from the old A2089 will make it to the new A2089.....but and That`s very important for me - there should be a technical progress according to the warmeks. I guess A2089 will get more gamers, if it`s clear for them, that A2089 will be a miniatures games with developments. (like Dark Age - if I buy booster packs I`m looking for the next new expansion pack with new and exciting meks - so I`m a real collector and I abuse my bank-account to finance my addiction.) So what I mean is that there should be new expansion packs and with every new pack - gamers will get better fighting machines.
Let me write just one last word to the warmek topic:
Please develop some special warmeks f.e. four limbed warmeks, Arachno warmeks - four arms warmeks.

ad4.) I`m very curious to see your warmeks, although I guess that big figures will cost too much. One post writer mentioned that shadowrun from wizkids didn`t become a hit, because some players realized that they were playing with dolls - I can agree with this statement!!!! So I would rethink this idea

ad5.) quick and easy rules, but tactical deepness - sounds great

ad6.) I´m very curious to see your graphic novels - of course I will buy them!

 

[Lane Shutt]

1. Slight revision of the setting, so we are in the middle of actual Armageddon, rather than just a few ops here and there.

I think this would interest a lot of people.
A more detailed accounting of events leading to all out war and early battles would be nice. Giving players the option of fighting in the English Secession from EF would be nice. While characters would have little effect on the timeline it would be fun.

To go along with an advancing timeline I would include release dates for Warmeks and other equipment. For those campaigns starting earlier than 2089 it would be nice to say "these Meks are available" or "prototypes of the new IPEX WarMek are trickling onto the battlefield and full release is expected in three months". Include some brief rules for used equipment and the release dated become more meaningful.

2. A box set, containing: three books (the rulebook, the setting book and a Mek spec guide), reference sheets and loads of folding/stand up counters/figures of all the Meks present in the box set.

Sounds good. Price and coverage? Will we need to buy three or four supplements just to play a combined arms battle?

4. Full miniatures support - Each Mek comes in its own mini-box set with a bunch of different weapons options. They need their own box sets, as the miniatures (plastic and/or metal) will be around 6-8 inches high. There will be parts packs available to seriously customize Meks and maybe built in magnets to quickly swap arms and such like. All Meks will be in scale with each other.

This is far to large for game play when combat can take place at 500-1000 m. At 6-8" the scale would be about 1:100 scale so tables would nee to be several meters long. Set a ground scale that is playable and make the minis slightly larger.
For example a ground scale of 1:500 and minis at 1:300 scale. This gives us 20 mm hexes representing 10m, Mek minis ranging from 1 cm to 8 cm, infantry at 6.6 mm tall. This assumes combat is played in wargame mode rather than RPG mode.

There is still the option of making kits for RPG (30 mm) scale Warmeks. A medium size Mek would be about 8" tall. Follow the lead of Robotech/ Gundam kits, multi-pose using P-caps. Select a couple designs and give 2-3 weapon options in the kit, additional weapon fits could be done using resin/ photo-etched brass kits.

5. The rules will be fairly quick and easy to play (no SFB here!) but will retain A2089's more unique ideas such as electronic warfare, biological weapons and tac-nukes.

This sounds like a major shift to Wargame rules.
If this is the case please make the setting book available separately and produce an updated RPG book as well. You could probably compress the character, personal equipment and combat rules from the main book plus the supplements into a single hardcover book. Warmek and vehicle design could be shifted into an additional book. Additional "Armory" books could be released as comprehensive collections of vehicles and aircraft.

IMHO a reasonable product line would be:
Wargame box $60
RPG rules $35
Setting $22 (optional, for RPG only play)
Design $22
Armory $10-15

6. Full novel and graphic novel support for the setting, with a solid, advancing timeline.

Excellent.

As I said, just throwing ideas around right now. But if you want to influence the game's development, speak now!

I have lots of ideas.