Arma: Fighters:Anti-Fighter:

[Locutus9956]

/agree with burgers alternate points costings

Personally though I cant say as I've EVER bought independant fighter wings anyway in non campaign situations (and in campaign I tend to only have a few around to replace ships losses and use if I get stuck in a patrol level game)

 

[Iain McGhee]

Actually Minbari fighter fusion cannons miss the mini beam goodyness.

But yes Hyperions always wonder why their hightech interceptors get no work at all against Minbari.

Well, that sucks. They're mini-beams by definition. I'd suggest that as a rule change, straight away. Light fusion cannons = AP, Minibeam

I asked about that on Rulemasters and Matt Sprange himself said they didn't count as having the mini-beam trait since they didn't put out enough power. Don't agree myself, but that's as official a ruling as you'll get. :wink:

 

[Alexb83]

Making them minibeam would make them obscenely effective at shooting down enemy fighters in the 4 inch range. (mind you, they do appear to be this effective in the series).

Making them minibeam against capital ships but not against fighters would add to the extra paperwork. Making exemptions to rules and whatnot is the way the EE do things... frankly I think we can do with avoiding that.

 

[JayRaider]

Ok , some of the issues raised so far against Anti-fighter fire first:
To complicated, to much book keeping and it puts fighters back to the level of effectiveness pre-Arma.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Ok , some of the issues raised so far against Anti-fighter fire first:
To complicated, to much book keeping and it puts fighters back to the level of effectiveness pre-Arma.

I have to admit, I can't see any bookkeeping whatsoever. If it's A-F, it fires first, if not, it fires after fighters (simply decide whether Minibeams, emines and A-F missiles count or not, I'd say not in all cases).

It DOES slow the game down, as you have to go through the initiative sequence twice (or at least through every ship on the table twice), once for A-F, then fighters, then non-A-F.

Wulf

 

[Burger]

Ok , some of the issues raised so far against Anti-fighter fire first:
To complicated, to much book keeping and it puts fighters back to the level of effectiveness pre-Arma.

I have to admit, I can't see any bookkeeping whatsoever. If it's A-F, it fires first, if not, it fires after fighters (simply decide whether Minibeams, emines and A-F missiles count or not, I'd say not in all cases).

It DOES slow the game down, as you have to go through the initiative sequence twice (or at least through every ship on the table twice), once for A-F, then fighters, then non-A-F.

Wulf

What if I want to split my mini-beam between fighters and ships?
(Just the first question I thought of: I'm sure there are many more complications if I could be bothered to think about it)

 

[Burger]

the Primus will only even be able to shoot at the Tinashi in 2 of every 6 turns.

In a 1 vs 1 at 20" or more, yes. But would the Primus stay at that range? No, he'd close to within 8". Suddenly he only needs a 3+ to break stealth. Throw in a corvan or some fighters to reduce stealth, and he's at "anything but a 1".

 

[JayRaider]

I was thinking that the anti-fighter weapons on a ship being directly attacked by fighters can only fire first.
This is different than all ships with anti-fighter weapons firing and wouldn't slow the game much.

I wouldn't allow mini beam this advantage, since its not a dedicated anti-fighter weapon.

 

[Burger]

I wouldn't allow mini beam this advantage, since its not a dedicated anti-fighter weapon.

Yet another nerf to Minbari. Thats all we need, thanks a lot.

 

[Alexb83]

the Primus will only even be able to shoot at the Tinashi in 2 of every 6 turns.

In a 1 vs 1 at 20" or more, yes. But would the Primus stay at that range? No, he'd close to within 8". Suddenly he only needs a 3+ to break stealth. Throw in a corvan or some fighters to reduce stealth, and he's at "anything but a 1".

Well, you have a few more options with the Tinashi - come hard about and keep range on him, or a second option - full speed ahead, get past him as he's in a rush to close on you, and once you do so, take advantage of your extra turn to keep him running in circles.

As for throwing in a Corvan, you'd be getting a Nial or 2 Flyers for the same price, going against a Corvan with no Antifighter weapons.

I don't think this argument can really go anywhere. You seem completely unwilling to see the big advantages which the Minbari still have. No doubt the stealth rules change disadvantages them, but if you change the way you play, rather than simply relying on 5+/6+ stealth (which seems to be what you expect, and for the most part what you still have) I think you can get around it nicely.

 

[JayRaider]

Perhaps a seperate thread would be better for discussion of the Minbari and Arma consequences?

 

[Wulf Corbett]

What if I want to split my mini-beam between fighters and ships?

What you are firing AT doesn't count, only what weapons are being fired. So Minibeams fire after fighters.

(Just the first question I thought of: I'm sure there are many more complications if I could be bothered to think about it)

Oh, loads. That's why it wasn't used..

Wulf

 

[Burger]

relying on 5+/6+ stealth (which seems to be what you expect, and for the most part what you still have) I think you can get around it nicely.

Only Minbari ships with 5+ stealth are Sharlin (plus variants), Morshin and Leshath.
Have you ever played as, or against, Minbari? (Genuine question, not meant as a snipe or personal attack)

Yes, stealth was too strong in SFOS. But now, it is too easy to break. I do have other strategies, that is an ISA fleet and a League fleet

 

[Alexb83]

You get 5+ stealth (effective, with the -1 penalty to Stealth rolls) for all 4+ stealth ships outside 20 inches from an opponent, do you not? For 5+ stealth ships, this becomes 6+.

Also, last time I checked, the Morshin and Neroon also had 5+ stealth.

In answer to your question, no, I haven't yet played ACTA 'properly' (though I will be, playing minbari at MoW). Call me naive, but I'm trying to be completely pragmatic. The stealth 'nerf' doesn't seem too severe at all, so long as you do the following things: 1. eliminate his scouts and fighters quickly (you should have no problems doing either, between your guns and fighters) 2. keep range until you've done 1., and even when you have, don't enter 8 inches (all your weapons, save for the specialised ones on the Torotha and Tigara variants are well over 8" range).

 

[JayRaider]

Any other complications from allowing anti-fighter weapons to fire first?

 

[Burger]

Well allow me to give you lesson no. 1: keeping range, while it sounds good in principle, is impossible in practice. Most of my weapons ranges are 25" or 30" at best, in the front arc. How do you propose I fire back yet maintain range of 20"? Maybe for 1 turn, but then he APTE's. Even if I All Stop, in 2 turns he is within 8". If I'm shooting down fighters in this time, he is on top of me and I die. If I run away, I don t get to shoot back, and when I hit the edge of the table I'm stuffed.

His scouts are at the back; how do I shoot these, they mostly have stealth too, and will be at +1 because they are more than 20". If I close on these, I'll be within 8" of his other ships.

I don't enter 8", HE does! Please, play some games and find out how it works in practice, with an opponent who is trying to kill you rather than just sitting there letting you kill him.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Any other complications from allowing anti-fighter weapons to fire first?

Not really. Slowing things down is the major one.

Wulf

 

[H]

Well allow me to give you lesson no. 1: keeping range, while it sounds good in principle, is impossible in practice. Most of my weapons ranges are 25" or 30" at best, in the front arc. How do you propose I fire back yet maintain range of 20"? Maybe for 1 turn, but then he APTE's. Even if I All Stop, in 2 turns he is within 8". If I'm shooting down fighters in this time, he is on top of me and I die. If I run away, I don t get to shoot back, and when I hit the edge of the table I'm stuffed.

His scouts are at the back; how do I shoot these, they mostly have stealth too, and will be at +1 because they are more than 20". If I close on these, I'll be within 8" of his other ships.

I don't enter 8", HE does! Please, play some games and find out how it works in practice, with an opponent who is trying to kill you rather than just sitting there letting you kill him.

Careful Burger, next thing you know, you will be telling us that Centauri are underpowered and the EA need more ships... 8)

 

[Tank]

But the EA do need more ships :lol:

 

[Burger]

And the Haven is underpowered!!!