Arma: Fighters:Anti-Fighter:

[JayRaider]

Hi all, i've been considering the new Arma rule on fighters.
Fighters fire first.
Its increases the effectiveness of fighters, lets them do some damage before they get destroyed.
Thats good.
However, this has a severe affect on fleets like the Vree. With their low hulls they are easy prey for fighters. Their anti-fighter weapons are now only used after the fighters have attacked.
And the Vree ships don't carry any fighters. So attempting a fighter defence against enemy fighters is expensive in terms of Points.

The solution: any ship with anti-fighter weapons who will be attacked by fighters,gets to fire first with anti-fighter weapons only against any attacking fighters!
Since anti-fighter weapons have a greater range than the attacking fighters weapons, its seems only right that the anti-fighter weapons get to fire first.
Any Admiral who orders his fighters to attack a ship with anti-fighter capability should pay the price for his mis-judgement.


Ok, thats enough thinking for one day.
Opinions? Any better ideas on fixing this issue?

PS. i know Arma has just arrived and some people might think its best to try and play the game using those rules for now. But i think the earlier the discussion begins on improving the rules system for a future update or new edition, the better.

 

[Burger]

Too complicated.

The fighters ignore stealth within 1" rule, has hurt me more than fighters fire first. My Battle level ship has been taken down in 2 turns by fighters, and thats without any lucky crits.

 

[H]

you are not on your own here. the fighter "fix" was a quick dirty fix and not well thought out. How manymodern day destroyers sit their thinking, I've got to let the aircraft fire first...
it is a bit proposterous really, and fleets that you used to think twice about swooping on with fighters are now easy prey as for example, a frazi wing is more than capeable of taking down a vree saucer on it's own.

I keep thiking if I close my eyes, when I open them armageddon will be gone again.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

The solution: any ship with anti-fighter weapons who will be attacked by fighters,gets to fire first with anti-fighter weapons only against any attacking fighters!

Ok, thats enough thinking for one day.
Opinions? Any better ideas on fixing this issue?

In other words, the idea I've been pimping since Armageddon was first proposed 8)

Problems: A-F weapons with other uses. Mini Beams, emines and A-F missiles, primarily. When do they fire? Bookkeeping - do you get to CHOOSE whether to fire before fighters, or after? Or MUST all A-F fire be done before? Can you fire an A-F weapon, before fighter fire, but fire it at ships?

Second edition ought to address the issue (not necessarily in this way).

Wulf

 

[H]

The solution: any ship with anti-fighter weapons who will be attacked by fighters,gets to fire first with anti-fighter weapons only against any attacking fighters!

Ok, thats enough thinking for one day.
Opinions? Any better ideas on fixing this issue?

In other words, the idea I've been pimping since Armageddon was first proposed 8)

Problems: A-F weapons with other uses. Mini Beams, emines and A-F missiles, primarily. When do they fire? Bookkeeping - do you get to CHOOSE whether to fire before fighters, or after? Or MUST all A-F fire be done before? Can you fire an A-F weapon, before fighter fire, but fire it at ships?

Second edition ought to address the issue (not necessarily in this way).

Wulf

meanwhile in second ed headquarters....

" you know, I've been thinking that fighters firing first is a bit of a problem, we've seen a huge dropoff in Vree sales, lets give Vree zapometers like the vorlon, no wait, even better, I have a perfect solution, make fighters fire last, no one will see that coming, then all the antifighter guns work are actually effective...."

 

[Wulf Corbett]

meanwhile in second ed headquarters....

" you know, I've been thinking that fighters firing first is a bit of a problem, we've seen a huge dropoff in Vree sales, lets give Vree zapometers like the vorlon, no wait, even better, I have a perfect solution, make fighters fire last, no one will see that coming, then all the antifighter guns work are actually effective...."

Nah, we're currently working with each flight being activated individually, like ships, and adding in a reaction phase with a priority bidding mechanic based on XP expendature and CQ.

Or not...

Wulf

 

[H]

meanwhile in second ed headquarters....

" you know, I've been thinking that fighters firing first is a bit of a problem, we've seen a huge dropoff in Vree sales, lets give Vree zapometers like the vorlon, no wait, even better, I have a perfect solution, make fighters fire last, no one will see that coming, then all the antifighter guns work are actually effective...."

Nah, we're currently working with each flight being activated individually, like ships, and adding in a reaction phase with a priority bidding mechanic based on XP expendature and CQ.

Or not...

Wulf

I think my mind just shutdown....

 

[Alexb83]

Okay, I view this from a Full Thrust basis - in that game, Fighters come in, and if they finish within 3 inches of a target at the end of the move phase, they make an attack. They take hits from the AF weaponry on the target, and any remaining fighters then get to attack. Similarly, supporting (screening in FT) craft can knock them out of the sky before they hit their target.

Does the 'fire first' rule say 'supporting fighters must wait until after the attacking craft fire, before removing them and putting them in a dogfight'? (as in SFOS and revised rules, where attacking craft must first destroy supporting craft)?

Also, howsabout keeping your ships outside of easy picking range of fighters? Then you can shoot them with AF weaponry before they reach you.

 

[Locutus9956]

Fighters-ignore-stealth-within-what-now!?!?! Hadnt seen that bit before (my copy is still in the post...)

I rather like that idea.

 

[Burger]

Fighters-ignore-stealth-within-what-now!?!?! Hadnt seen that bit before (my copy is still in the post...)

I rather like that idea.

It's stupid, fighters kill Minbari and Vaarls too easily now, cos of their low hulls and damage values. Stealth was the only thing keeping them safe, remove that and they are Frazi food. Like I said I've lost Battle level ships to fighters in 2 turns because of this change, and thats without lucky crits.

It means fighters can sit on the bases of capital ships they are attacking. That leads to nightmares when you want to move the ship in the next turn (fighters flying everywhere).

 

[Locutus9956]

Kill em with Nials... should work against anyone but narns.... as for Narns... erm... well... RUN AWAY!!!!!

 

[H]

Fighters-ignore-stealth-within-what-now!?!?! Hadnt seen that bit before (my copy is still in the post...)

I rather like that idea.

It's stupid, fighters kill Minbari and Vaarls too easily now, cos of their low hulls and damage values. Stealth was the only thing keeping them safe, remove that and they are Frazi food. Like I said I've lost Battle level ships to fighters in 2 turns because of this change, and thats without lucky crits.

It means fighters can sit on the bases of capital ships they are attacking. That leads to nightmares when you want to move the ship in the next turn (fighters flying everywhere).

I assume reaverman is being a bit twinky with his dice. I played a game the other night, the nials removed the frzis from their space without blinking. Stupid Nials. I suppose in hindsight, I should have taken a ship with e-mines :-(

 

[Burger]

Kill em with Nials... should work against anyone but narns.... as for Narns... erm... well... RUN AWAY!!!!!

Nials that cost 1 patrol point for 1 flight?
Only way to get a decent number of Nials is a Morshin. Thats 40% of your 5 Raid pionts dedicated to anti-fighter...

 

[Burger]

I assume reaverman is being a bit twinky with his dice. I played a game the other night, the nials removed the frzis from their space without blinking. Stupid Nials. I suppose in hindsight, I should have taken a ship with e-mines :-(

Nope wasn't Reaverman!
First one was Sentris at the ITF2 tourney. Second was vs Drazi (3 Sky Serpents and 3 Star Snake killed a Shantavi)

This change is simply an anti-Minbari nerf. If it was a universal change (within 1", fighters ignore stealth, dodge, interceptors and adaptive armour) then it wouldn't be so bad, at least everyone would be in the same boat. But as it is, it just hurts Minbari (oh alright and scouts too).

My boneheads are going back in their box I think, unless playing old tourney rules.

 

[Locutus9956]

Incidentally speaking of Nials, this fighters ignore 1" stealth thing, is that only vs capital ships or does that work against fighters too?

 

[Burger]

Incidentally speaking of Nials, this fighters ignore 1" stealth thing, is that only vs capital ships or does that work against fighters too?

Only against capital ships.
SHH, Minbari don't need their fighters nerfed too, they've taken enough of a beating!

 

[Tank]

Was that the Adster?

 

[Locutus9956]

thank god, I do like the idea of ignoring it vs ships (it just makes sense that a fighter thats strafing a ship can do so with a good old fashioned crosshair)

but I aboslutely agree with it not working vs other fighters, any time you see nials on the show and how they can manuever you would NEVER be able to engage them without targeting assistance

(also the main reason I dont think the anti ship part is such a handicap for Minbari in general is BECAUSE Nials are soo effective )

As for getting Nials in quantity, I personally favour Sharlins Or maybe Tigaras and Leshats in quantity (not sure how good Tigaras actually ARE now though (since theyre only stealth 3 at close range now)

 

[Burger]

Was that the Adster?

Yes

As for getting Nials in quantity, I personally favour Sharlins Or maybe Tigaras and Leshats in quantity (not sure how good Tigaras actually ARE now though (since theyre only stealth 3 at close range now)

Not practical in 5pt Raid. The most fighters you could get is 5, whereas any other fleet can just spend 1 raid point on a skirmish ship and 2 wings of fighters, and have twice that number... PLUS fighters launched from his capital ships.

 

[Alexb83]

In fairness, most Minbari ships have good coverage, 18 inch max range minibeams. How many fighters can move from outside 18 inches to within 1 inch range in one turn (without afterburners)?

Shoot them before they get too close for comfort, with plenty of AD (which Neutron cannons have) then when they get within 4 inches, take it on the nose (with -1 stealth) and shred them with your minibeams.