Arachnid Fluff Discussion

Galatea

Mongoose
To centralize this a bit and asure it doesn't go lost that fast.


1) Arachnid History (including original bug and queen discussion)


I have read through the Arachnid Army Book and I am sure more than ever that Breeders are the original Arachnid species - but they are not he only one.

Breeders lay eggs, Nursers fertilize them. According to the Army Book the eggs MUST be fertilized - so we just found the arachnid sexual males.
It's the Nursers.

Why then do Arachnid have more female egg-layers then male egg-fertilizers? Well that's a bit complicated.
Typically you need less males because males have much greater reproduction potential than females.
Well, but the Arachnids are not organized in a typical male-female-pair pattern.

It seems like in the distant past those bug colonies have proven best that reduced their percentage of males (means breeding less nursers and more breeders).
Actually having more males then you need is a waste of resources especially when a part of them is not capable of doing something useful for the colony.
So it seems like in the past the females defended the colonies and the males got engaged with caring for the brood in where they (through the millennia) specialised to such a degree that they even got incapable of defending themselves.

Of course it's a dumb idea to have the reproducing bugs fighting for the colony. So this lead to an arise of a new sort of genetic strain - either a male or female phenotype incapable of reproducing itself, leaving it up to the solely purpose of defending the colony.
(Funnily in Arachnid History the selection pressures must have pressed seriously stronger on the COLONIES, rather than individual beings.)

This single Arachnid colony now equipped with dedicated fighters expanded and - during centuries or millennia - conquered their whole homeworld.
Where the other colonies lost egg-laying females in every battle the new Bugs lost nothing but cheap cannon food.

It can be assumed that they had reached some form of higher intelligence while they conquered the entire planet. Probably they even had developed a primitive strain of brain bugs and certainly more strains of different fighters.
All Bug colonies where connected to each other, like the so called "traveller ants" (e.g. pharao ants) we no from earth.

So the bugs sat there and asked themselves what they could do next, driven by the urgent need to expand further.
Then they looked up to those distant lights covering the dark skies during night.
And then they understood. They knew where they had to go.

There hasn't been said anything about HOW bugs got into space, but in the end they did.
Maybe they evolved species being able to fly to the edge of the atmosphere and study the conditions there.
Maybe then they constructed their first plasma bugs and shoot spores of their first 'astronautic bugs' up to the moons, creating first outposts in space.
Maybe they created giant biological spacecraft-arcs to found their first space colonies on their moons or drifting in high orbit.

Whatever they did, once they got the jump into space-born life the rest was quite easy. Only one more problem appeared for the creation an Arachnid Empire. Fast interstellar travel.
But even that one was solved by biological engineering. They got it even better than the humans with all their technology.

Then they colonized space. They conquered many worlds and eradicated entire races.
Probably at this point they evolved queens as factory bugs, quickly producing an army of Soldiers smashing away any defence with their pure numbers and colonising a whole world. And at the same time the queens administrated all the colonies of those new Bug planets.

Already battle-hardened and with one single opinion what to do with any alien species they met the skinnies as the first interstellar race.
They almost eradicated the skinnies and then turned to the humans.
Their next target for invasion.


These are my thoughts to Arachnid history.
 
Well a few points- Firstly we dont have any actual evidence of what the original arachnids species were/was. Though the warrior bug is probablly one of the oldest designs.

secondly, we also dont know if the arachnids had a time where they warred with other arachnids, this may have actually led to increased modification and subspecies, until one colony finally subsumed all others.

thirdly: your forgetting the possibillity that warriors and other creatures are simply sexless. It doesnt matter if you are throwing away males or females as long as you have males and females breeding somewhere else. and they may have settled the argument by making unisex subspecies.... who knows... not a big deal.

I still disagree, about the queen, their social structure is too similar in design to earth insects for the queen to be an afterthought. Ants/Waps/Bees these are the big social insects and those all have queens, in fact no species has any sort of support 'breeder bug' and considering that it makes it even less likely that the designers intended for the breeder bug to be the original arachnid centerpiece and not the queen.

I think breeder bugs were developed so that queens did not need to be risked being sent to new and unsure of colonies, as they would be more difficult to transport and a larger investment.
 
Galatea said:
There hasn't been said anything about HOW bugs got into space, but in the end they did.
Maybe they evolved species being able to fly to the edge of the atmosphere and study the conditions there.
Maybe then they constructed their first plasma bugs and shoot spores of their first 'astronautic bugs' up to the moons, creating first outposts in space.
Maybe they created giant biological spacecraft-arcs to found their first space colonies on their moons or drifting in high orbit.

Already battle-hardened and with one single opinion what to do with any alien species they met the skinnies as the first interstellar race.
They almost eradicated the skinnies and then turned to the humans.
Their next target for invasion.

Actually, as per the Arachnid Army Book, you got the order a bit wrong :wink:

There was this Skinnie explorer ship that landed on the Arachnid homeworld to study the bugs, but in the end the Brains studied the Skinnies, learning that up there there's a whole galaxy full of yummy races and rich planets to feast upon. Then they combined the Skinnie knowledge on space travel with their own bio-engineering capablilities, giving birth to the Transport Bugs (hence the Transport Bug in the CGI refuelled with water, while Skinnie and Federation ships use hydrogen fuel - guess the bugs use a similar method for propelling their arses through space).
 
My guess is the Wokers are one of the oldest Bugs, who were in the begining used as soldiers as well, but due to prolonged combat the instincts changed more and more towards combat and less towards working. They would also have grown a thicker carapace and sharper "blades".

The Queen probably was the first Bug.

I agree on the whole space thing, going into the atmosphere at first. Hoppers, maybe, Warriors who grew wings. Then Transport Bugs.

Tankers still remain a mystery. Maybe originaly intended as a larger verision of the Worker? Or perhaps purely combat bred?
 
i think alot of species such as the tanker can be explained by the competition model, that the arachnids faced several colonies of their own kind and original competed with them until one colony developed sentenient queens and brains, this gave them a huge edge and eventually they destroyed the other hives... now the arachnids are unified and already had numerous ground warfare bugs
 
Whther the Queenbug is hte original strain or not, it is at teh top of the chain. in the CGI series, it was able to communicate better and clearer to Pvt. Carl Jenkins via telepathy. the whole scene implied a greater level of intelligence and/or sophistication then your run-of-the-mill brain bugs.
 
Don_Silvarro said:
Actually, as per the Arachnid Army Book, you got the order a bit wrong :wink:

There was this Skinnie explorer ship that landed on the Arachnid homeworld to study the bugs, but in the end the Brains studied the Skinnies, learning that up there there's a whole galaxy full of yummy races and rich planets to feast upon.

According to the books there already was an Arachnid Empire the Skinnies stumbled into.
They decided to study the bugs by landing on an arachnid planet. The book sais the Arachnids hadn't developed any kind of space warfare, not that they couldn't fly through space.
But I also asume that the massive transport bugs were bred for this invasion.


To the queens:
With all your regards for terran insects you should not forget that their queens didn't evolve from nowhere. Even today most of the insect species are non-colony organized ones.
By looking carefully you can even identify the bridges between 'pair-reproducing' insects and 'queen-reproducing' insects.

They ALL had evolved from a traditional male-female background. There was not a single insect species that STARTED with queens.
And the breeder-nurser connection and the similarities between Warriors and Breeders is just too obvious to be mere chance.
Also the role of Queens as massive factory bugs only found in huge old colonies speaks against them being one of the original bugs. Most colonies do not even have one.

The queen is like a massive bug factory. You do not plant a factory if you want to establish a new town. Just imagine the resources needed to transport a queen to a new place.
You need to send an entire army to do so (like the swarming of bees).
It may be one way, but it is surely not the common way.
 
I think my problem with your argument is that there is no similarities between warriors and breeders.

What imagery do you have of a breeder? the closest we get is the CGI and really thats a nurser bug. a actual breeder bug is never shown.

On top of that, your forgetting that this is a work of fiction made by people

now as people inventing fiction about an insect-ish alien race, do you think they thought of breeder bugs first or the queen? It was the queen

Book- Queens
CGI- Queens (or rippler ma's no breeders shown)
Movie- Nothing.
SST- Breeders and Queens
(no mention of egg laying for queen but no denial)

2.5 Queens VS 1 Breeder. is the score board.
 
Gauntlet- said:
I think my problem with your argument is that there is no similarities between warriors and breeders.
... a actual breeder bug is never shown.

Ummmm....... I see a problem there :D

Anyway, I kinda always figured the bugs were just space communists in the book, hence always considered them coming about more as a confederation of insect types over time... Possibly till they wiped out all the other life on their planet, before moving onto the next one. Applying insectoid evolution to the species doesnt work because they aren't really insects, they just happen to look like them... So from that view point you could argue there is no original species, but the brain bugs/queen bugs/Marx bugs are the first because they were the ones that wrote the Arachnid Manafesto :D

Trying to squeeze some kind of sense from the cartoon seems like an uphill struggle (Even though it is kinda cool), couldn't the breeder bugs be a latter invention, created to utilise foreign DNA, brought about over several generations by the reality warping mental powers of the queen?

Just a thought here, but has anyone got a copy of the original SST boardgame? Might be able to get some more info thats a bit closer to the original source that way (Or at the very least throw in another conflicting vision to the broth)...
 
Galatea said:
Also the role of Queens as massive factory bugs only found in huge old colonies speaks against them being one of the original bugs. Most colonies do not even have one.

The queen is like a massive bug factory. You do not plant a factory if you want to establish a new town. Just imagine the resources needed to transport a queen to a new place.
You need to send an entire army to do so (like the swarming of bees).
It may be one way, but it is surely not the common way.

Queens don't lay eggs *_*
 
cOwgummi said:
Queens don't lay eggs *_*

In the novel they do. They are horse-sized immobile egg factories, never found alive, they are killed before capture. I really think that in the novel the Brains are in charge of the colonies, not the queen.

Joe
 
Yes, we had that already. Sometimes they do, sometimes they dont...

Breeder Bug:
breederon8.jpg

looks quite like a Warrior to me.
 
to tell you the truth the bug you just showed looks more like a plasma bug...but i doubt it seeing as i have yet to own the MI or Bug army books
 
uhm, this is from the arachnid empire book for the rpg, not one of the armybooks (they don't have illustrations that cool ;) )
 
I think a bug like that was shown in the CGI toon series, the episode where they fight the 'water tiger' bugs and arae underground, they find a nest of eggs and this big looking bug like the one in the picture was there, chasing the Roughnecks out of the cave system before it was killed by explosives detonated behind.
 
Post 1400! :twisted:

I'm stll interested in building or finding a proxy model for the Queen Bug since Mongoose gave us game stats. At this point I'm looking toward modifying the Alien Queen from the new AvP Horrorclix line... so my Queen model will be an egg-layer.
 
This is one of the very few 'fun' topics to really debate because there is no right or wrong answer and knowing that, Sprage is going to let us talk in circles all we want while he just sits back and laughs.

My favorite point brought up so far this is that the Arachnids were created by a science fiction writer... not an entomogist. Hence the entire bug race is based off of science 'fiction' not science fact. Academics have historically looked at communism as a human form of 'bug' culture were any one part is disposable and all parts only live to serve the greater collective. So when Heinlein decided to write a story about social issues and conflicts but in a fictional future world, he thought a bug race would be a good symbolic representation of communists. (just like how Star Trek used Klingons and Romulans to represent other cultures who conflicted/contrasted with Federation/American culture.)

So lots of things could have been written that don't make any 'science' fact sense.

So everyone has their own opinion and can be right in their own way. (unless you are just flat out contradicted by a direct quote from a published source material.)

Here is the science fact that I find humors because everyone is over looking it.

"Bugs are not asexual reproducers."

I mean I know the image we gamers have are all nerds who have never touched a woman but we do all know how babies are made, right?? (yes I'm making fun of my self too. This is a statement for humor purposes, not one to insult you guys out of spite. Now back to making fun of all of us 'gamers' while I make my point.)

Here's a text book quote:

"Female insects typically have an opening in the abdomen called an ovipore, through which they receive spermatophores."

So most insects do get it on. I will admit that is not always the case:

"Like most land animals, most insects have internal fertilization, which means the egg and sperm join inside the body of the female. This process differs from external fertilization, in which a male fertilizes eggs that have already been laid by the female, typically in water. Some species achieve fertilization without direct contact between mating partners. For example, among insects called firebrats, males deposit spermatophores on the ground, and females find the spermatophores and insert them into their receptacles, or gonopores. But among most insects, males and females have to physically pair up in order to mate."

So what does this mean???? it means this and the previous threads are all forgetting one thing... who's the lucky bug getting it on with the leg layers?

I think the names are really quite clear and maybe even miss represented by the Mongoose Publishing company.

  • Queens lay eggs.
    Breeders 'fertilize' the eggs to make them start forming life.
    Nurse bugs manipulate the fertilized eggs to promote specific species creation.
That really seems to make sense to me. More then what everyone has been saying so far. If the Queen lays an egg and it's not fertilized, what good is that egg except to make the worlds most disgusting bubble and squeak?
 
hmm thats not a bad way to look at it

though there is an interesting option available- from the PC game of SST circa 2000, there was a mission where one must follow a 'Consort' bug to the queens lair.

Im pretty certain that Breeders would lay eggs, there isnt a big a need for alot of breeders, and its pretty clear that not all colonies have queens.

While true that insects dont breed aesexually, the arachnids are not true arachnids or true insects, they are completely seperate from life from earth, thus I see no reason why they cant breed asexually- and in most cases Id say that they do, there isnt very much reason for genetic varience regarding the warrior bugs for example.

The genetic alterations IE mutations are controlled, and conducted by the nurser bugs, who really represent the male in this system...

so I would alter your thinking to this-

Nursers are males, and determine the 'sex and type' of the eggs
Breeders lay eggs
Queens lay MORE eggs

-Eggs that are not 'fertilized' by the nursers probablly form worker bugs when hatched, or possibly 50/50 chance of worker or warrior... that would be a safe bet for them, that way if for some reason nursers are unavailable they can still use those eggs for something...
 
Stratos said:
Post 1400! :twisted:

I'm stll interested in building or finding a proxy model for the Queen Bug since Mongoose gave us game stats. At this point I'm looking toward modifying the Alien Queen from the new AvP Horrorclix line... so my Queen model will be an egg-layer.

If I was better off financially right now, and didn't mind cutting up a limited edition minature, I'd base mine on this:
tunneldweller_green_1.jpg


...As it stands though Im working on a stand in generic 'big bug' out of left over parts from the Duel Masters Deathblade Beetle which ends up with some suitably imposing bits and pieces after you've hacked it up into a tanker bug :D
 
im going to make a queen with a plasma bug butt, tanker head and some limbs from the tanker as well. then greenstuff like i have never greenstuffed before!!!
 
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