Appeal of Savage Worlds

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Yeah, the levelling does seem a bit off. Probably because it (apparently) started as miniatures rules.

The more I look at it, the more I'd like to like it more than I do...

I know what you mean. All us guys getting older, pretty fluent in rpgs, but either wanting to get our kids involved in something a bit fast play, or not having time anymore to devote to huge involved D&D campaigns, are crying out for something like Savage Worlds.

Is it the Holy Grail? No, I dont think so. Its seriously lacking in the stuff weve taken for granted in other systems, and it isnt going to keep us warm in those long winter nights of our old age.

Who knows, though, I wouldnt put it past them to release a Savage Worlds Expert Edition.

 

[Demetrio]

I think it might work for me if there was a bit more variety in the Hindrances and if Edges were a bit cheaper - or maybe just you didn't have to choose skill or attribute or edge at each level... maybe if your attributes started out better but were fixed (or were REALLY expensive to raise) so you could have maybe 10 to assign to attributes at the start rather than 5, plus you could add for picking starting Hindrances if you wanted (so potentially 12 points). But then no more raising (I've never been too happy with characters in their 30s and 40s increasing in stats anyway).

And maybe 3 free edges when starting out instead of one.

And a free edge every rise in rank (ie as Seasoned, Vet, Hero and Legend).

But slower progression between levels.

Someone is going to come along and say 'oh well just houserule that'... and it might satisfy me... but something still nags a bit. Don't know what exactly.

Perhaps it's the fact that everything is essentially limited to the range d4-d12+2. A seven step system for skills and attributes. By the same token d20 has around 9 steps for attributes (bonuses -1 to + +7) and around 25 for skills (assuming play ceases at lvl 12 and taking into account the effect of feats, synergies and stat bonuses on skill levels). Equally, combat has about 20 or so possible 'steps'. So SW is more constricted in that way. Or if not more constricted then the steps are bigger. they may in fact be both more constricted and have bigger steps.


EDIT: and another very unsatisfying aspect is how many skills are tied to Agility. I mean what were they thinking? And what is the rationale behind Guts as a skill? Why not just use Spirit?

I'd assign (capitalised moved from either Agility or Smarts):

Agility: Boating, Driving, Lockpicking, Riding, Shooting, Stealth

Smarts: Gambling, Healing, Investigation, Knowledge, Notice, Repair, Tracking

Spirit: Intimidation, Persuasion, STREETWISE, TAUNT

Strength: Climbing, FIGHTING, SWIMMING, THROWING

Vigor: SURVIVAL

Which balances things up a little more and I think are a bit more logical ties in most cases (certainly in a pulp setting, Fighting should be tied to Str not Agi and I have never yet seen a swimmer who was weedier than a climber).

 

[Troll66]

I think the skills progression for SW is a strength: they equate to poor - ok - good - very good - excellent - masterly.

Thats mentally enough for me to then think how skilled is an NPC at something rather than in D20 whenI have to think is he 1 rank or 25 ranks in Disguise (not to mention level restiction plus feats et etc ).

Less is more imo.

 

[TheTruthHurts]

I wasn't going to get online and discuss this topic because I felt this subject of Conan going to Rune Quest or Savage World would eventually die down and people would start talking about other things. However the complete ignorance (not knowing) of some people is almost 'driving me to drink'.

I am tired of everyone thinking that just because a game company puts out a good product they are capable of doing Conan. In fact Mongoose has not been totally dedicated to the game in the last couple of years even though they put out really great products. Rune Quest? A great game, but who say's Conan will be better in this rules genre? Oh and don't get me started on Pinnacle Games. They put out the Solomon Kane Rpg, which was awesome I might add however how long ago was that? Two years? Hmmm...yeah I want a game company taking over Conan that comes out with practically nothing in rpg product in over two years.

Oh and by the way, does anyone know or know of Vincent Darlage? Why he's the 'shiznit' of everyting Conan. I have seen the message boards and almost everyone agree's with this. Did you know that Pinnacle Games hired him and Eric Rodriguez to write rpg supplements for the Solomon Kane game? Did you know they were complete and almost historical atlases full of accurate information on the 'awesome meter' at 9 or higher?

And did you know that after they finished a couple of these world reference books Pinnacle decided they were too historically accurate, too mature for Solomon Kane fans and too detailed. They wanted Vincent and Eric to 'dumb' them down? Vincent and Eric, for obvious reasons, basically said that wasn't possible and Pinnacle paid them a 'kill' fee to stop work.

So, for all you Pinnacle Fans, please stop saying that Pinnacle would do Conan right. You have the greatest writer of Conan being told that his stuff is too accuarate and detailed for the Solomon Kane game, what do you think they would do to Conan?

Now, on the bright side, I think Pinnacle Games Savage World system rocks! I think Mongoose's Rune Quest game is awesome. Please stop assuming that just because a game company does one game well that they will be experts in everything else.

Thanks,

The Truth

 

[Demetrio]

Less is more imo.

Well sometimes.

But in SW the two highest levels for skill and attribute are open only through legendary feats. So (presuming most people play at sub-legend levels) you're in fact limited to 5 levels as a player in most circumstances. That's quite a lot less. Hell even seven levels isn't really a lot to play with. It is easy for GMs, but, I think, somewhat restricting for players (especially given the character generation system and advancement system are a curious combination of stingy-at-start, rapid-advance (session to session) and very limited advancement (level to level).

As I say, if I run a SW campaign, I think I'll just have characters generated at Heroic or Legendary rank (where there's actually some meat and flavour to the characters) and only have them advance very, very slowly - and probably with my 'tweaks' from my above post. But the actual level advancement (and it is a level based system for pcs in terms of advancement) seems badly thought out to me from the pov of extended campaigning.

What I do like about SW is the fact (in Solomon Kane at least) generic npcs are not stupidly overpowered. Most have skills in the d6 region, d8 at most. Unlike in most systems when they tend to be, in my view, over-statted and over-feated becasue of the somewhat bizarre otion that all npcs should follow character generation rules designed for pcs.

 

[PEGShane]

(I originally posted this into the other thread--my mistake--fixing now.)

Our model at Pinnacle is very different than Mongoose's. We generally do *one* book and then move on. We did that and did it well with Kane, I think. There's enough material in there to play for years--that's what the whole Plot Point concept is all about. We do have 3 more Kane books in the pipe, but only added them after we saw a lot of demand for them and decided they were appropriate. And yes, we have been very slow on them. No excuses there.

We're not a full-time business like Mongoose, and have different priorities. I agree that makes us a poor candidate for a line where people are looking for a lot of support material.

As for Vincent and Eric, I won't comment on freelancer's work except to say they're both great guys and excellent writers but this particular project didn't work out.

That's probably all I'll say on all this. I don't want to highjack Mongoose's forums. I have great respect for Matt, Alex, and the gang and hope they continue to be as successful as they have been for the past few years with all their various lines.

Cheers all,

Shane

 

[quigs]

I'd like to mention that I ran a Conan game for a while with 2 players using just the core SW book and the fantasy toolkit (for monster/npc stats).

Both my players said they had the most fun playing this game, using these rules, than any other gaming system. They never felt their characters were inferior or too "average".

The SW game tends to cater to people who want a more realistic combat game, one were your character can't take on 100 mooks by himself and come out with a couple hp's of damage. If forces you to use tactics and common sense in some combat scenarios. If you are outnumbered or clearly outmatched, fighting may not be the best course of action.

I don't think comparisons of d20 with SW is really relevant, as they are drastically different systems and play completely different. d20 is far more detailed, which some players like because it allows a huge number of small customizations that make each character different. SW has the edge when it comes to simplicity, ease of play, and speed, and doesn't concern itself with characters needing 10 class abilities and 15 feats to define what they can do.

 

[Demetrio]

Well if you've played Conan d20, you'll know your remarks about combat 'realism' in SW are just as applicable to that game.

I just think it takes a long time to grow a character in SW who has any breadth. I'm not that arsed about having some sort of super-specialist (who seems pretty easy to grow in SW), I do like a character who can fulfill more than one role. And, to me, a character only gains any really cross-the-board versatility in SW a about Heroic level.

In a way this doesn't matter too much. I recently read a good article by a SW aficianado that basically said 'the names of the ranks are all wrong' and that legendary level was pretty much where a character got most interesting. After my few days analysis, I'm inclined to agree (though I'd say Heroic into Legendary). I'd say while SW is certainly playable at low levels, characters tend to be very unversatile indeed if they want to be good at even a couple of things.

So in essence (and really all I wanted was a discussion of pros and cons that went a bit beyond 'fast play', 'fun' etc) I think with an overhaul of character generation, stat-skill ties (I mean come on, HOW many does agility get tied to? Really...) and tweaking of the experience system, it might fly for me.

But I still think that as it stands it's a poorer fit for Conan than it need be because the underlying assumptions favour agility over strength for fighting types - which isn't pulp, let alone Conan and low level characters struggle to get a decent breadth of skills.

 

[Da Boss]

Both my players said they had the most fun playing this game, using these rules, than any other gaming system. They never felt their characters were inferior or too "average".
.

Sadlly several of our group had the opposite experience, we were slated fro playing in a 18th century piratical game and I created much background about my flamboyant swashbuckler - who was absolutely pathetic using SW - no skills to speak of and the standard fighting "feats" that every seems to take.

IMO Its also a bit rubbish that all you stats start low and to get one at a reasonable level (say at D8, the same as Mooks) you have to drop another down to near subhuman levels..........

I'd much prefered if a more skilled character got bonuses to the roll rather than dice. Same happened when we used it for several other games until we ditched it. Conversely other members of our group love it.

They really enjoy the "tricks" we could never get them to work and found the way they worked restrictive. I have the same problem with elements of D20 to be fair.

The card system they use for iniaitive (a watered down version of teh superior (IMO) Deadlands one is good but lacks the "right feeling" that is had in a western game - simlar the poker chips were good in Deadlands and more interesting as well - In SW they now have a stupid name/s and are not as intersting.

 

[Demetrio]

Try generating character at Heroic level instead. I think you might find they then have the necessary pazzazz.

For Solomon Kane, I was completely unable to generate a decent fighter with an academic bent (like a Captain Blood for instance) at low levels. But at heroic/legendary he could have two skills at d10, 2 at d8, 5 at d6 and a couple at d4, along with stats averaging d8 and 9 feats. You could swap out feats for skills and have a slightly less flavourful fighter but a more skilled one... and he can't do everything even now. He's good with pistols and swords (both d10) and has knowledge theology and law (both d8). But nothing else exceptional - and only Taunt as a communication skill.

I should add, ditch Guts and just use Spirit for those rolls instead...


See by the RAW, a starting character has d6 (average) across the board in stats. Okay, i get max. hindrances and pump those points into stats allowing me two raises.

So let's say I want a fighter in a Conan environment. I need high Str for damage, high Agi for manoeuvers (and to get a decent melee skill in RAW) and at least decent spirit so he doesn't run screaming like alittle girl. likewise at least average Vigor. So I have Smarts as a dump stat... great... big dumb fighter stereotype here I come... let's say:

Agi d8, Sma d4, Spi, d6, Str d8, Vig d8

15 skill points...

Fighting d6 is a minimum. I need at least the basics of Climb, Swim or Ride, Survival, Shooting or Throwing and Notice too. Say I take all but Ride and Shoot at d4. So I've spent 7 points... 8 left. Oh! Guts. Need that at d6 at least. So 6 points left. Notice really needs to be d6, 5 points. And say Climb and throw... right 3 pts left. Take Taunt at d6 for a bit of flavour... oh bugger! I can't it's a smarts skill! So take stealth at d6 instead... forgot stealth... leaves 1 pt to boost Fighting to d8

So I have 1 above average skill and a barbarian who can climb, throw, sneak averagely, has average awareness and won't immediately drown if he falls in the river, neither will he necessarily starve in the wilds (survival d4). He's no coward but he's not desperately brave either.

But he can't ride or fire a bow. He has no knowledge skills, no communications skills, can't paddle a canoe... I mean he's fine as a starting, stereotyped youthful barbarian. But there's not the breadth of choice that d20 or RQ would offer.

He's not rubbish, and with the aid of his wild dice, is actually a decent fighter. But he'll grow very slowly indeed. And he'll remain pretty narrow until Veteran level at least, by which time he'll have been able to buy two stat increases.


Let me reiterate that by Heroic level, he'll have been able to either achieve a decent (not exceptional, decent) breadth, or if he wants, stay narrowly focused on a few skills and really excel at them. At that level and beyond the game works as pulp for me, I think. I'll need to actually play a few proper games to be sure. But although SW is pretty simple, its simplicity is both virtue and vice. It is not, in short, the messiah.

 

[Troll66]

Don't forget Hindrances and all Humans get a free edge!

Also in a Conan SW game background racial bonuses would be a good idea as per the in D20 and as used in the SW conan version available on the web... So your skills would get boosted up nicely in that context.

 

[Demetrio]

I included the hindrances, they allowed the stats to be as high as they were.

If you add racial bonuses then the effects will be disproportionate to d20. In SW a +1 bonus is pretty huge. Makes a big difference. Maybe you could grant a couple of skill steps instead (but then you'll still hit the stat cap very fast at low level.

Mark you, I'm not saying SW is a bad concept, far from it. I was initially sceptical but after mulling it over off and on for about six months now, and really looking at it more closely over the last few days having rashly bought SK, I think it's actually okay.

It's just the whole skill-stats tie thing needs SERIOUS overhaul (as I say, honestly, HOW many for Agility? And only Climbing for Strength? Please.)

And I would say for good value pulp play, Heroic to Legendary level is where you get good but not superhuman characters. Akin perhaps to d20 lvl 6-10. And that, to be fair, is of the basis of playing through a few combats and testing out some skill rolls. I wouldn't pretend it's necessarily gospel. But if any SW player would like to challenge what I've said (because it might well be flawed reasoning in parts), I'd really appreciate a little detail and not just 'me and my pals have a blast'.

And let me say straight away that I find d20 characters weak at low level (below 4) too. But it's far easier to get a broad-based but decent low level character in d20 than in SW.

 

[celmive]

I wasn't going to get online and discuss this topic because I felt this subject of Conan going to Rune Quest or Savage World would eventually die down and people would start talking about other things. However the complete ignorance (not knowing) of some people is almost 'driving me to drink'.

I am tired of everyone thinking that just because a game company puts out a good product they are capable of doing Conan. In fact Mongoose has not been totally dedicated to the game in the last couple of years even though they put out really great products. Rune Quest? A great game, but who say's Conan will be better in this rules genre? Oh and don't get me started on Pinnacle Games. They put out the Solomon Kane Rpg, which was awesome I might add however how long ago was that? Two years? Hmmm...yeah I want a game company taking over Conan that comes out with practically nothing in rpg product in over two years.

Oh and by the way, does anyone know or know of Vincent Darlage? Why he's the 'shiznit' of everyting Conan. I have seen the message boards and almost everyone agree's with this. Did you know that Pinnacle Games hired him and Eric Rodriguez to write rpg supplements for the Solomon Kane game? Did you know they were complete and almost historical atlases full of accurate information on the 'awesome meter' at 9 or higher?

And did you know that after they finished a couple of these world reference books Pinnacle decided they were too historically accurate, too mature for Solomon Kane fans and too detailed. They wanted Vincent and Eric to 'dumb' them down? Vincent and Eric, for obvious reasons, basically said that wasn't possible and Pinnacle paid them a 'kill' fee to stop work.

So, for all you Pinnacle Fans, please stop saying that Pinnacle would do Conan right. You have the greatest writer of Conan being told that his stuff is too accuarate and detailed for the Solomon Kane game, what do you think they would do to Conan?

Now, on the bright side, I think Pinnacle Games Savage World system rocks! I think Mongoose's Rune Quest game is awesome. Please stop assuming that just because a game company does one game well that they will be experts in everything else.

Thanks,

The Truth

Well thank you for that

Evidence or rant ?

Seems like a rant to me - or one based on some facts but mainly bereft of key facts

And your proof of this is ?

((Please do not say it was thru a mate of a mate etc...))

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Demetrio

In fairness to Savage Worlds, I do think its a game you have to play a little bit to see the whole picture. I know you have played it somewhat, but Id be careful about changing too much as the game tends to unravel fairly easily, and not all effects of rules are immediately apparent.

I think Solomon Kane is a pretty good 'overall package'.

I cant get over SWs incompleteness though. That Pinnacle continue to bolt stuff onto the system indicates to me that they consider it 'expandable' too. (Im having a conversation over on Pinnacles forum about this at the mo.).

 

[Troll66]

below is taken from Savage sword of Conan - its a good SW take on the principle of background culture as used in D20 Conan:

Cimmerian

Tall and Strong: Cimmerians are a naturally tall and strong race, made stronger still by the
gifts of Crom – D6 Strength

Renowned Climbers: Cimmerians are renowned as the finest climbers in the world. Most will have
climbed at least one peak that non-Cimmerians would regard as impassable
before even leaving their homeland – D4 Climbing

Great Courage: Cimmerians have courage even in the face of great adversity – D4 Guts

Survivalists: Cimmerian culture is survivalist and barbaric – D4 Survival

Blunt and Direct: Cimmerians are famously blunt and direct in their speech, a habit which has
been known to get them into trouble on any number of occasions – Quirk
(Blunt Speech)

Restrictions: No Noble or Rich Edges available to Cimmerians

Language: Cimmerian

Suggested Languages: Nordheimer, Pictish, Aquilonian, Hyperborean

 

[TheTruthHurts]

Celmive,

Not a rant dude. Nor rumor. Shane from Pinnacle confirmed this on another thread.

Shots anyone?

 

[Demetrio]

Yyrkoon

The rules I'd change don't affect resolution mechanics in the least, merely character generation. And I can't for the life of me see how having two stats 'controlling' virtually every skill between tem is a good thing. Or logical.

Well except maybe removing Guts and replacing the required rolls with a straight Spirit check. But in all honesty it's a silly thing to have as a skill.

Now it might be argued that characters would then get too powerful too fast. So I grant you experience and advancement would need a thorough overhaul. But to be honest I think it needs it.

As it stands, even generating at Veteran level (the maximum 'perimissible' under the RAW) fails to deliver a very pulp-like character to my mind.

The Savage Sword of Conan example quoted above is essentially assiging 1 attribute and 3 skill points over and above RAW, which is a step on the road, I'd say.

Personally I'd assign thus for PCs:

Novice – 6 Attribute, 20 Skill, 3 feat (RAW 5, 15, 1), plus Hindrance bonus as under RAW (which most will put into attributes I think)
Seasoned – +1 Attribute, +5 Skill, +2 feat (RAW would allow +1 attribute, +2 skills, +2 feast or +1 attribute, +4 skills, +1 feat or +1 attribute, +6 skills or +1 attribute, +3 feats. Taking the attribute is pretty much esential under RAW)
Veteran – +1 Attribute, +5 Skill, +2 feat
Hero – +1 Attribute, +5 Skill, +2 feat
Legend – +1 Attribute, +5 Skill, +2 feat

and allow the feats to be swapped for skills or vice versa at any level (thus one could, if one wished for any reason, gain +10 skills but no fets at a level or +4 feats but no skill increase).

but reqire a campaign between levels. Or something along those lines. One of the developers said the system was designed with 3-4 hour sessions in mind and 2-3 experience points per session. So in essence a level up for every 7 hours of play, thus a gain in rank every 28 hours or so of play, or every 8 sessions. The above system would allow slightly higher powered pcs, especially at the lower levels where the RAW is just frustrating. If one set a requirement of 10 xp to gain a rank and gave an xp at the end of every session, that'd be about the same but with 'chunkier' increased rather than 'bitty' improvement, but more solid starting characters to offset the wait between improving.

The actual 'playing rules' mechanics, bar guts, I don't have much of an issue with. It has some odd quirks, but no more so than most systems and is subtler and better than it first appears.

 

[Brisco]

Hi all.

When I need a "rules-lite" system, I currently use Cortex. Is Savage Worlds much better? For Conan, I'm happy with the depth of the current rules.

I almost bought SW this morning, but could not recognise the core rule book. It looks too small!

Cheers,
Brisco.

 

[Spongly]

Savage Worlds isn't really rules light - it's fast, but fairly "crunchy" as far as games mechanics go. What it is is very easily modifiable.

 

[quigs]

I almost bought SW this morning, but could not recognise the core rule book. It looks too small!

That's cause it is small I only have the PDF version but that is 163 pages of good gaming fun!

The system does have some crunch to it but it is fairly consistent and not nearly as much as other game systems such as MRQ and d20. Not to bash those systems mind you, but they are more complicated and have a lot more specific rules that have to be looked up constantly.

The thing is only 10 bucks so I'd recommend it. The Solomon Kane book would probably work better for Conan though because of the magic system and extra edges and bestiary.