Appeal of Savage Worlds

[Ichabod]

More than ever, with the recent news, people are expressing their interest in running a Savage Worlds Conan game.

I'm curious as to what makes people think it will be significantly better. I'm curious because I'm running a Solomon Kane game and was playing in a Deadlandsesque game and am not seeing the awesome.

Mostly, I just see it being different. And, different may be important for people who really hate tactical wargame mechanics. But, it is possible to strip away the boardgame elements of d20, like AoO's and whatnot to make it less wargamey.

I prefer lighter rules than d20, sure, but I don't feel any great elegance to SW's rules.

I've already instituted a number of house rules. The main ones are to stop the unending "Shaken, not Shaken, Shaken, not Shaken, Shaken, not Shaken" crap that is unbelievably tedious.

My players seem to like SK, possibly prefer the mechanics to Conan, but again, Conan d20 doesn't actually fall apart if you mess with the mechanics or remove some. And, I'm hardly as engaged with the SK mechanics as I am with, say, L5R's (combat and noncombat). Admittedly, the latter's combat system is really better for people who like extremely complex tactical decisions in two round combats that may easily kill half the party.

 

[celmive]

Depends on who is running the system to be honest.

Savage Worlds is a very rules-lite system. As a RPer of many years I love this when I use run games with it as I think it allows concentration on Roleplay as opposed to roll play.

I can concentrate on the character aspects rather than the rules aspects a lot more. From my personal point of view this is great. I know a lot of players and refs who much prefer lots and lots of rules to cover as many options as you can try to imagine. This is one reason why I am not a fan of D&D 4e - though lord knows I want to be - and to a lesser extent d20.

What I will say is we are all different and what one person finds a knockout another sees it as a bit of a limp fish so to speak.

Oh and yes, I have streamlined the SW Combat even more so it's even faster and got rid of those awful stun states too

Fot my tuppence I believe CONAN : SAVAGE WORLDS would be (Have been) a huge hit and probably outsold the d20 Version with the Runequest version not far behind. I fully realise why d20 was chosen originally and I believe at that time it was the best decision Matthew Sprange/Mongoose could have made but I also think it needs openings elsewhere and I would look at core rulebooks/scenarios with the addition of non-rules specific supplements.

Ade

 

[Da Boss]

Many of my friends continually express their love of Savage Worlds - but I agree I see nothing massively great - and much prefer Deadlands from which I believe it evolved (or de evolved IMO).

I am a very rules lite player/GM and actually found a number of the mechanisms irritating and restrictive in Savage - give me D100, Buffy or a few others any time.

 

[celmive]

Many of my friends continually express their love of Savage Worlds - but I agree I see nothing massively great - and much prefer Deadlands from which I believe it evolved (or de evolved IMO).
.

Close - it was an Off Shoot of the Railwars Miniatures Rules for Deadlands

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Yeah, Savage Worlds seems to be flavour of a the year. I think its been seen as this regardless of any merits the system has, because it was seen as rules lite. Having played it a little, Im not convinced. Cpt Machine has it right when he gave it a 3 out of 5 for the Explorers.

It does need all the extra supplements to make it into a workable system, and the price and page count becomes similar to any other game after you add those.

I agree, parts easily come loose after close inspection and or house ruling. The shaken/not shaken is pretty uninspiring and the experience system is full of holes. I wouldnt have touched a system that used playing cards before SW and I dont know why I thought SW to be a special case. The SW bubble has burst for me.

Its ok. But weve had enough and gone back to the 'proper' systems we used before. Its ok being rules-lite, but when you make it lite by cutting out the main life-giving organs, its not going to live for very long.

 

[Spongly]

Ooh, I'll throw in on the side of SW. The reasons it's popular are:

1) It's cheap. With a tiny bit of work I've found the Explorer's Edition, which cost me around £6, to have everything I needed to run a Dark Age fantasy game, a Sci-Fi Space Opera game, as well as Conan. I've also been playing in an SK campaign. I think it's simplicity make it one of the few really viable generic systems, so long as you're playing something reasonably cinematic or heroic.

2) It's easy - making characters and NPCs and monsters for Savage Worlds is incredibly fast, and means you can spend more time designing your adventures and less time trying to calculate how many feats and skill points a particular NPC should have.

3) It plays fast, espeially in combat. You can run some large combats in Savage Worlds and rattle through them in less than a full gaming session, which is refreshing change from most RPGs where large fights slow to a crawl. Partially it's the initiative system, which is great for visually representing exactly who is going when. Partially it's just how easy much of the system is to remember - roll die, get a 4. This makes it ideal of pulpy, heroic fantasy like Conan.

I also quite like the 'shaken' mechanic - I know a lot of people who have mentioned problems with this, with people endlessly being shaken, then unshaking the next round, but if your PCs and NPCs are using tactics in a fight that shouldn't be too much of a problem - I've only found that problematic when everyone stands toe to toe trying standard attacks each round and hoping for high damage. When you start "shaking" opponents with taunts or tricks, ganging up, performing wild attacks and so on, we found the problems just disappeared.

Basically, I think the system fits Conan much better than D20 because it's designed to facilitate fast action and pulp style heroics - characters get very good at what they do, but are never invincible in quite the way high level d20 characters become. The magic system is also very open and vague, which I think suits the mysterious nature of Hyborian sorcery better than a very "scientific system" with lots of paths and prerequisites.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Ooh, I'll throw in on the side of SW. The reasons it's popular are:

1) It's cheap.

2) It's easy

3) It plays fast,

Basically, I think the system fits Conan much better than D20 because it's designed to facilitate fast action and pulp style heroics - characters get very good at what they do, but are never invincible in quite the way high level d20 characters become.

The magic system is also very open and vague, which I think suits the mysterious nature of Hyborian sorcery better than a very "scientific system" with lots of paths and prerequisites.

1) I dont think its that cheap, for what it is. I think most of us would need at least the Fantasy Companion to have anywhere near a complete workable system, and that works out at around £23 total. Pretty similar to the Conan rpg, and you get lots of background in the Conan book and a complete magic system.

2) Its not that easy. Theres a little more crunch than it first appears. And. if youve played any rpg for a while you will have a stock of npcs which you can rotate anyway. It doesnt have to be that difficult to play even an involved d20 game.

3) RQ plays fast too. I find that fast play systems, apart from RQ, are often, 'incomplete systems'. And, they are often gradually loaded down with splat books. Ive seen this before. I dont think SW plays any faster than GURPS lite, to be honest. A system which SW has borrowed from extensively.

Does it fit Conan better than, say, RQ would? I think the most perfect marriage Ive seen is between RQ and Slaine. And the Hyborain Age has a lot of similarity to Slaines world. I think that would be a better fit.

Yes, the magic system for Savage Worlds [/i]is 'very open and vague', for that, I would read 'incomplete'. Now being extended with the Fantasy Companion. I think Mongoose did a great job describing Hyborian magic ritual. I dont think SW does at all, with its fast play 'frying' spells.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Anyone else think Savage Worlds is the bastard offspring of GURPS?

 

[Demetrio]

I wouldn't go that far.

From my limited experience of playing the system:

I think it's a good idea let down by being a wee bit gimmicky and not quite as well thought out as it might be.

It does contain some great ideas and it is reasonably priced (even taking into account the various expansions). But I don't think it's that wnderful in play. It gives fairly fast resolution for combat and the combat's probably no worse than most rpg systems in terms of results.

But I don't think it's really that wonderful. It's different to d20 for certain, but I've never found d20 (or indeed any system) to inhibit roleplaying in the way that some people seem to find it does.

 

[quigs]

I actually love Savage Worlds, and I have a couple players who love it as well. We did a Conan game using it a while back, just the core book, and it was excellent.

Shaken mechanic, I don't mind it. Beats the hell outta keeping track of hit points.

Rules-lite it is...definitely. Quick, also true. Even big fights are over in 30 mins or less.

The magic system isn't the best, but it gives you a good skeleton to work off of. But I'm of the group that doesn't want PC magic-users in Conan. I prefer to leave them as NPC's.

 

[celmive]

Anyone else think Savage Worlds is the bastard offspring of GURPS?

Not in the slightest - and the post above gets it right imho... £6.00 for a complete workable system is great. You really do not need all the fluff of the additional add-ons. Most of it is common sense and easily worked out by any GM with an hour or so to spare.

At the end of the day we all have our favourites - Heck one of my all time faves is "Man Myth & Magic" So what some enjoy and love another will detest.

What cannot be denied is that SW is a cheap easily adapted system that is very popular with gamers. From a Mongoose point of view supporting this system would be a good move financially.

 

[celmive]

I actually love Savage Worlds, and I have a couple players who love it as well. We did a Conan game using it a while back, just the core book, and it was excellent.

Shaken mechanic, I don't mind it. Beats the hell outta keeping track of hit points.

Rules-lite it is...definitely. Quick, also true. Even big fights are over in 30 mins or less.

The magic system isn't the best, but it gives you a good skeleton to work off of. But I'm of the group that doesn't want PC magic-users in Conan. I prefer to leave them as NPC's.

Says it all really that.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

So no one else thinks the 'buy a quirk to get a perk' is in any way ripped from GURPS?

Strange.

 

[celmive]

So no one else thinks the 'buy a quirk to get a perk' is in any way ripped from GURPS?

Strange.

It has been around for a long time that one mate and used in numerous systems through the years so not that strange really - and if something works why not use it ? Only if its broke get rid. Makes sense to me.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

So no one else thinks the 'buy a quirk to get a perk' is in any way ripped from GURPS?

Strange.

It has been around for a long time that one mate and used in numerous systems through the years so not that strange really - and if something works why not use it ? Only if its broke get rid. Makes sense to me.

GURPS did it first. And the SW system is the closest Ive seen to a 'homage'. Ive heard, though, that rpg systems cant be copyrighted, so games that are similar arent doing anything 'wrong', thats just the way it is. I would say though, SW DOES echo GURPS in lots of ways, i.e., not relying on or having few characteristics, the perks and quirks, the 'cost' procedure for characters, the number of edges and hinderances for monster creation in relation to monster strength, the actual edges and hinderances themselves, their descriptions and their uses, etc., etc..

This isnt necessarily a bad thing, as I say, same as you, if it works, why not use it? Its a fact though that GURPS is more complete, and GURPS lite is free as a pdf, so its easy to try out.

The point I was making is to say SW is revolutionary in design doesnt exactly tell the whole story. Its a repackaged, modern version of an old school successful system.

 

[Troll66]

I was designed to allow peoplle (with busylives) to get into good fun and fast play roleplaying with elegance of design. Its crunchy enough to work logically without the headache of all those tricky GM judgement calls that truely rules lite sytems bring with them.

I know where I am with SW: I just get all confused and tinkery with BoL or Braodsword etc.

As for Conan magic. Well the existing Conan D20 magic system would port over very simply keeping the whole power points thing to boot.

SW in my opinion allows players to develop character within an open framework as oposed to the restriction that D20 classess brings.

Anyway bottom line its a very popular system and so a SW Conan rpg would do very well. As would RQ version.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

For anyone doubting the similarity between SW and GURPS, heres a little test I did, matching all of the SW hinderances with GURPS disadvantages. (I have a busy life, really!). SW first , then GURPS equivalent.

All thumbs (Ham fisted), Anemic (Wounded), Arrogent (Megalomania), Bad eyes (No depth perception), Bad luck (Unluckiness), Big mouth (Noisy), Blind (Blindness), Bloodthirsty (Bloodlust), Cautious (Fearfulness), Clueless (Clueless), Code of honour (Code of honour), Curious (Curious), Deathwish (Lifebane), Delusional (Delusions), Doubting Thomas (probably Magic dampener), Elderly (Elderly), Enemy (Enemies), Greedy (Greed), Habit (Personal habit), Hard of Hearing (Hard of hearing), Heroic (Sense of duty), Illiterate (Dyslexia), Lame (Lameness), Loyal (Honesty), Mean (Bad tempered), Obese (Fat), One arm (One arm), One eye (One eye), One leg (No legs), Outsider (Loner), Overconfident (Overconfidence), Pacifist (Pacifism), Phobia (Phobias), Poverty (Low wealth), Small (Dwarfism), Stubborn (Stubbornness), Ugly (Ugly trait), Vengeful (Fanaticism), Vow (Vow), Wanted (Enemies/Destiny), Yellow (Cowardice), Young (Young trait).

Phew! Some are closer to others, but maybe too much of a coincidence for so many similarities?

 

[celmive]

FGU did it before GURPS to my knowledge.

Also getting a GURPS Licence is next to impossible - I know cos I spoke to SJG some years ago. They like it "In-House". Also they are VERY hot on possible copyright breeches. RPG Systems can be copyrighted. I am sure Matt can back me on that and if SJG thought SW was too close I can assure you they would have come down on it like a ton of bricks...

I find GURPS way too Rules Heavy - more rules=more restriction on RP

Savage Worlds has a bigger active user base I suspect by now.

Shane actively promotes 3rd Party Licences

Some people like lots of rules - I don't.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

FGU did it before GURPS to my knowledge.

Also getting a GURPS Licence is next to impossible - I know cos I spoke to SJG some years ago. They like it "In-House". Also they are VERY hot on possible copyright breeches. RPG Systems can be copyrighted. I am sure Matt can back me on that and if SJG thought SW was too close I can assure you they would have come down on it like a ton of bricks...

I find GURPS way too Rules Heavy - more rules=more restriction on RP

Savage Worlds has a bigger active user base I suspect by now.

Shane actively promotes 3rd Party Licences

Some people like lots of rules - I don't.

Im not a SW hater. I can see the appeal. Id just be interested to see if as many people are playing it in a few years time. There is a certain amount of 'gimmick' to it as a number of people feel. Does it sustain a long campaign? I would suspect not.

Yes, whether FGU did it first, I was pointing out the similarity between GURPS and SW. I dont love GURPS by any means either, but GURPS doesnt have to be 'rules-heavy', it depends upon how you play it.

In the same way that I wouldnt expect D20 guys to drop their carefully crafted campaigns for a go at RQ, I dont see why everyone should get aboard the SW train with the idea that it is somehow 'new' in approach. I can see its 'influences' all too clearly. And if you prefer Pinnacle as a company over SJG, thats fine too. As I say, it seems that you cant actually copyright rpg mechanics, and Im sure both SJG and Pinnacle know this too.

 

[quigs]

I'd say it could support long-term campaigns, assuming that is what you wanted to play.

I have not run a long one myself honestly, we did a couple adventures then ran out of time as one of the two players went back to university.

But that raises another good point, you can run a game with only 2 players, and a bunch of NPC extras, and its still SUPER fun.