Anything but a 1
- Thread starter Right Hand of God
- Start date
yup, the Dag Kar is a ship just designed to kill minbari.... fighters.
ok turn 1, Dag kar fires 16 dice of e-mines.
needing say a 4 in the worst case hull scenario, it will hit with 8, doing lets say 8 damage, 8 crew, we will assume no bulk heads. it's 2 missiles get a lock on for the hell of it, doin a possible crit, but baring a 6-5 it's unlikely to kill anything.
we have been kind to the dag kar giving it no bulkhead hits and asuming a torp hit and critted. pretty generous.
turn 2, chances are that a minbari ship moves into ITS range, minbari probably won initiative. lets say the minbari ship has a 2AD neutron beam. super ap hitting on 2's, it probably caffed as well. so 2 hits, then on 3's, we'll say only one hit from bad luck. then on 4's, well we'll say it hits as on missed last imt, but it misses on 5's.
so thats 4 hits, precise DD. so probably 8-8 damage to the dag kar, 1 crit maybe. and this is with only 2 dice as opposed to last turns 18 dice for the dag kar for the same effect.
this was of course genralisation. giving some good rolls to the dag kar. I think you hugely over-rate this ship. Alas i don't know minbari stats off my head, i'm assuming the raid ship has more than 2AD, and possibly a higher hull. either way, that Dag kar is not tasking down any minbari ship, unless it reverts to stealth beating with it's torps and gets a crit. OR goes all ship buster, somehow gets it's hull 4 past all the minbari flore, and beats stealth to get the ship busters into the minbari ship. you will find on the other Raid Narn, and 18" boresight beam, or a 12" lots of dice gun mostly.
ok turn 1, Dag kar fires 16 dice of e-mines.
needing say a 4 in the worst case hull scenario, it will hit with 8, doing lets say 8 damage, 8 crew, we will assume no bulk heads. it's 2 missiles get a lock on for the hell of it, doin a possible crit, but baring a 6-5 it's unlikely to kill anything.
we have been kind to the dag kar giving it no bulkhead hits and asuming a torp hit and critted. pretty generous.
turn 2, chances are that a minbari ship moves into ITS range, minbari probably won initiative. lets say the minbari ship has a 2AD neutron beam. super ap hitting on 2's, it probably caffed as well. so 2 hits, then on 3's, we'll say only one hit from bad luck. then on 4's, well we'll say it hits as on missed last imt, but it misses on 5's.
so thats 4 hits, precise DD. so probably 8-8 damage to the dag kar, 1 crit maybe. and this is with only 2 dice as opposed to last turns 18 dice for the dag kar for the same effect.
this was of course genralisation. giving some good rolls to the dag kar. I think you hugely over-rate this ship. Alas i don't know minbari stats off my head, i'm assuming the raid ship has more than 2AD, and possibly a higher hull. either way, that Dag kar is not tasking down any minbari ship, unless it reverts to stealth beating with it's torps and gets a crit. OR goes all ship buster, somehow gets it's hull 4 past all the minbari flore, and beats stealth to get the ship busters into the minbari ship. you will find on the other Raid Narn, and 18" boresight beam, or a 12" lots of dice gun mostly.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Precicely. Emines are useful but in general Minbari still ships are still more effective than most other races at decent range. Just becuase there ARE a fefw ships that have the odd weapon here and there that can outrange them doesnt mean they outfight them at that range. The only one that COULD previously was the dreaded 10 saggs and now with the newly fixed saggs Id say its even money (the Minbari should be able to possitively melt the Saggs away!)
Lastly if your sitting at range firing at them even if you HAVE weapons that can reach that far your going to be doing so at +1 to stealth rating!
Enough is enough. No more Minbari are weak whines please, Minbari are now as they should be a nicely balanced list that plays and feels quite close to their on screen versions
Lastly if your sitting at range firing at them even if you HAVE weapons that can reach that far your going to be doing so at +1 to stealth rating!
Enough is enough. No more Minbari are weak whines please, Minbari are now as they should be a nicely balanced list that plays and feels quite close to their on screen versions
...ok, vehement defence of the new stealth rule here...I think you may be exaggerating the difficulty of reducing stealth though to be fair.
Personally, from my own experience, I found it difficult to get round stealth to begin with...then, by using the various special actions, fleet selection, varying firing arcs, scouts and getting within 10 inches (old stealth rule), I found I could hit the ships as often as I missed.
The new stealth rule doesn't make me work as hard tactically... :wink:
Scanners to full is now a lot easier to pull off given that ships shoot last, and it's not that hard if you use supporting flights in mass numbers, both to see off Nials and to team up when attempting scanners to full (+1 bonus per supporting flight!)
You don't have to take just one scout and in a campaign you can get scouts with higher CQs (or if using League, just use Vaarls!) to make it easier to reduce to stealth....and sure scouts are frail but hey, they have stealth too! (usually)
...I've yet to see a player fail to get within 8 inches of a Minbari ship at some point during the game...
Plus, now that fighters fire first, you can always ignore stealth by getting within 1" and throwing fighters at the Minbari ships! (although if the ship survives the first assault expect some payback)
I'm not saying the boneheads are ridicously weak now but an experienced player is usually not troubled by stealth too much at all (unless the gods of dice hate you that is!)
Personally, from my own experience, I found it difficult to get round stealth to begin with...then, by using the various special actions, fleet selection, varying firing arcs, scouts and getting within 10 inches (old stealth rule), I found I could hit the ships as often as I missed.
The new stealth rule doesn't make me work as hard tactically... :wink:
Scanners to full is now a lot easier to pull off given that ships shoot last, and it's not that hard if you use supporting flights in mass numbers, both to see off Nials and to team up when attempting scanners to full (+1 bonus per supporting flight!)
You don't have to take just one scout and in a campaign you can get scouts with higher CQs (or if using League, just use Vaarls!) to make it easier to reduce to stealth....and sure scouts are frail but hey, they have stealth too! (usually)
...I've yet to see a player fail to get within 8 inches of a Minbari ship at some point during the game...
Plus, now that fighters fire first, you can always ignore stealth by getting within 1" and throwing fighters at the Minbari ships! (although if the ship survives the first assault expect some payback)
I'm not saying the boneheads are ridicously weak now but an experienced player is usually not troubled by stealth too much at all (unless the gods of dice hate you that is!)
lastbesthope
Mongoose
The only auto fail on a 1 is a rol against hull, so even SAP weapons can miss a hull 3 ship.
The only auto success is a CQ check for SAs on a 6.
LBH
The only auto success is a CQ check for SAs on a 6.
LBH
CZuschlag
Mongoose
From the sounds of it, it may also be that the Minbari players are still using the Tiagra in the same way they used to be. This is a mistake. The Tiagra is a very very specialized hull that has to look for a glory moment. You can't fly it like a stealthed Altaran anymore --- it'll just die.
If you're looking for something that can fight and take a pounding for the Minbari, I suggest folks re-evaluate the Ashinta. I've grown to appreciate this little nightmare. Takes forever to kill as a Raid level ship, and has massive range. The twin-linking of the fusion systems makes it feel like a Nova with great range. Doesn't throw the same broadside weight, but it's not interceptable, either.
Tiagras really have to commit in, so you have to squadron up, only go in when you can overwhelm any extant interceptors, and wait to win initiative. Going against EA or Abbai with Tiagra is, in particular, really asking for it. Drazi, Dilgar, and old Vorlons are much better options. Even then, it's a bit dicey, and you certainly can't just go into the center of the opposing fleet, you'll just die. The other strategy is staying at range and, in particular, getting the most out of your superior secondary guns (Fusion Beams are brutal secondary devices!) for as long as you can. The fleet choices, probably, are what will need to evolve.
Also, I expect to see more Shantavi going forward for attempts at lucky enemy scout annihilations, and more Neshantans as Hull 6/Stealth 4 against some enemies look like a better plan (vs. Drakh, late in campaigns when lots of ships have enhanced sensors in enemy fleets.)
If you're looking for something that can fight and take a pounding for the Minbari, I suggest folks re-evaluate the Ashinta. I've grown to appreciate this little nightmare. Takes forever to kill as a Raid level ship, and has massive range. The twin-linking of the fusion systems makes it feel like a Nova with great range. Doesn't throw the same broadside weight, but it's not interceptable, either.
Tiagras really have to commit in, so you have to squadron up, only go in when you can overwhelm any extant interceptors, and wait to win initiative. Going against EA or Abbai with Tiagra is, in particular, really asking for it. Drazi, Dilgar, and old Vorlons are much better options. Even then, it's a bit dicey, and you certainly can't just go into the center of the opposing fleet, you'll just die. The other strategy is staying at range and, in particular, getting the most out of your superior secondary guns (Fusion Beams are brutal secondary devices!) for as long as you can. The fleet choices, probably, are what will need to evolve.
Also, I expect to see more Shantavi going forward for attempts at lucky enemy scout annihilations, and more Neshantans as Hull 6/Stealth 4 against some enemies look like a better plan (vs. Drakh, late in campaigns when lots of ships have enhanced sensors in enemy fleets.)
Right Hand of God
Mongoose
LBH do you have a page ref for a roll of 1 failing on a to hit roll?
I disagree that the CQ check is the only auto success on a 6. weapons with the weak trait shooting at hull 6 ships are also successful on a 6 or is that different?
I disagree that the CQ check is the only auto success on a 6. weapons with the weak trait shooting at hull 6 ships are also successful on a 6 or is that different?
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Right Hand of God said:
I only have a soft copy rulebook available at the moment, but the 6 always a hit seems to be on P.8 iof rulebook 1. Attack Phase, second sub heading "Firing" second sub para.
You're right, a 6 is always a hit, says it in the same place, my bad
In my defence, I knew it, I just forgot it temporarily.
LBH
