Anything but a 1

[Right Hand of God]

taking into account the recent changes introduced to stealth it is now possible to reduce a ship's stealth rating to 1.

distance modifier
scout modifier
fighter modifier
ancient modifier

there is nothing in the rules, that I have seen, that says a roll of a 1 is always a failure.

So does a stealth trait that has been reduced to stealth 1 through the application of various modifers become an automatic success or do you still pray to the dice gods and chant anything but a 1.....anything but a 1

The convention for a roll of 1 being a failure is commonplace in many gaming systems but I have not found in mentioned in the ACTA rule books or supplements.

 

[katadder]

also on this theory is it possible that a CQ check can be failed ona 1 as well, say a CQ6 ship attempting to scramble scramble?

 

[Burger]

There is also the Nemesis' HEL modifier, and a campaign refit for some races. So even a stealth 6 ship could be reduced to 1!

do you still pray to the dice gods and chant anything but a 1.....anything but a 1

Never ever do that!!! Pray for "2 or more".

 

[Alexb83]

Yeah, saw a CQ failed on a 1 last night. Fighter crashed in an asteroid field, even with its +1 modifier, and only needing 2+ to get through the low density.

Stealth should be given the '1 is a fail' rule, though. Or a certain blue shipped race should have all their stealths upped by 1 across the board. It's just too easy to bypass now, for everyone (so much for fluff!)...

 

[Locutus9956]

you know by god your right! I hadnt actually realised it at first but its only attack rolls that fail on a 1 regardless (had this clarified for QC checks some time ago but it didnt affect stealth then as it was incredibly rare any stealth ship COULD be reduced to a 1....)

One for rulesmasters methinks but by the book if you reduce stealth to 1+ then you DO pass on a roll of 1! (Id say a very big NO to increasing Minbari stealth ratings to compensate though, it just means you have to stay further at range, possibly increase their hit points or in some cases hull values but NOT stealth, I think stealth is as close as its going to get to right at the moment without a dramatic change to the actual rule mechanic)

 

[H]

Yeah, saw a CQ failed on a 1 last night. Fighter crashed in an asteroid field, even with its +1 modifier, and only needing 2+ to get through the low density.

Stealth should be given the '1 is a fail' rule, though. Or a certain blue shipped race should have all their stealths upped by 1 across the board. It's just too easy to bypass now, for everyone (so much for fluff!)...

you STILL have to suceed at a scanning roll on your scout, get fighters into range withough them dying and scan, get your ships into range without them dying, then sit in range of his primary and secondary weapons for long enough to kill a ship. oh, and be a vorlon, shadow, drakh, or nemesis to get the additional +1. IF you can do all that, then sure, you deserve to beat the Minbari. I don't thik it is as easy as people keep going on about.

 

[Alexb83]

Consider that most ships outrange the Minbari in weapons, outscore them in hull and in damage tracks, outnumber them in sheer volumes of fighters and get scouts for cheaper - it's not that hard at all.

Between a Leshath and a Sharlin going after a Neshatan yesterday I got 3 turns, one out at 20+, two within 20, one within 8 - I had his stealth at 4+, then 3+ for two turns, then 2+, without the help of fighters (which I could have used). Didn't fail to roll on my scout at all for four turns.

Reducing stealth on a 4+ with scouts, and again with a couple of fighters, and again by getting within 8 inches... again, I don't see how that's tough.

 

[H]

Consider that most ships outrange the Minbari in weapons, outscore them in hull and in damage tracks, outnumber them in sheer volumes of fighters and get scouts for cheaper - it's not that hard at all.

Between a Leshath and a Sharlin going after a Neshatan yesterday I got 3 turns, one out at 20+, two within 20, one within 8 - I had his stealth at 4+, then 3+ for two turns, then 2+, without the help of fighters (which I could have used). Didn't fail to roll on my scout at all for four turns.

Reducing stealth on a 4+ with scouts, and again with a couple of fighters, and again by getting within 8 inches... again, I don't see how that's tough.

then you are A) very lucky, b) play against an inept player, or C) absoulutely right, and everyone I know that plays is completely and utterly wrong, and the recent wins for the minbari were all flukes?

or possibly a mix of all 3, the dice can be evil. if you regularly roll 5 on your scout rolls, your fighters get past nials with ease and somehow don't get minibeamed, and your ships don't get killed by the lovely precise weapons of the mibari, fair dinkum

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Consider that most ships outrange the Minbari in weapons, outscore them in hull and in damage tracks, outnumber them in sheer volumes of fighters and get scouts for cheaper - it's not that hard at all.

Between a Leshath and a Sharlin going after a Neshatan yesterday I got 3 turns, one out at 20+, two within 20, one within 8 - I had his stealth at 4+, then 3+ for two turns, then 2+, without the help of fighters (which I could have used). Didn't fail to roll on my scout at all for four turns.

Reducing stealth on a 4+ with scouts, and again with a couple of fighters, and again by getting within 8 inches... again, I don't see how that's tough.

How many times have you playedagainst the minbari using the new rules now? In three games I've not beaten them once - yes the stealth rolls are easier to beat now, but they are far from a deal breaker.

 

[Hash]

This came up in a campaign game I played against Reaverman quite a while ago - Shadows vs. EA.

The battle was set in an EM-field, giving all ships 2+ Stealth (i.e. the anything but a one stealth rating)

We were playing the old stealth rules (+1 to stealth over 10") so I used a Shadow Scout to de-stealth one of his ships...couples with the Shadows ancient bonus vs stealth this meant than even a 1 would technically mean an automatic success (I don't think you have to actually roll the dice if the outcome doesn't matter!)

Still we were fairly new to the game so we assumed a 1 was an automatic failure...I must have rolled a 1, three or four times in a row that fight! (needless to say I got my ass kicked).

Don't know what the official line on this would be though so a rulesmasters query would probably be good.

As a point of note, the ancient (Shadow and Vorlon) bonus to stealth is worded that they get a "+1 to their rolls" to defeat stealth, NOT, "stealth is reduced by 1". Not much difference granted but it means if you do roll a "1", then actually it's really a "2"!

 

[Greg Smith]

I have never managed to get both the scouts and Scanners to Full! to succeed on the same ship.

It is possible to reduce stealth by a lot, but you have to work for it (those fighters could be shooting at the target without stealth), use your forces (chosing a scout instead of a war ship) and get lucky on the rolls.

If you know that you are plying Minbari it can be worth chosing your forces to do that. In a campaign ot tournament, it may not be so easy.

 

[Locutus9956]

Sure its easy if the Minbari just sit there twiddling their thumbs but:

a) Take some ships that carry Nials and kill anything that tries to get close enough scan you.

b) RUN AWAY. Use aft weakons. Use hyperspace, use all power to engines, KEEP AT LONG RANGE!!!!

c) Scouts are fragile. Make them go away....

Now furthermore:

Minbari have less hitpoints - well yes of course they do but because of stealth they get hit less in the first place! Try playing with the tourney list if you think the SFoS ones are fragile! Frankly the SFoS ones were WAY too tough with the old stealth rules, theyre fine now.

Most races outrange Minbari - Excuse me WHAT?!?!?! Neutron lasers (the main armament on Minbari ships are genrally 25" at least and most are 30"! Theres about 2 or 3 weapons in the entire GAME that can better that and most that can match it are boresighted!) And fusion cannons which make up the majority of the rest of the Minbaris weapons are better ranged that alot of races PRIMARY weapons!

It was bad enough when the centauri players complained about their fleets but for the Minbari lot to whine about it is just ridiculous!

The fundamental mechansim to the Minbari fleet has changed substantialy and hence the whole fleet has and yet Minbari players from what I've read are just carrying on playing in exactly the same way as they used to and wondering why it doesnt work as well? For the record I too play Minbari (they are in fact my primary fleet they just took a back bench to my EA till stealth got fixed) so I'm just harping on about stuff I haven't tried myself. Simply put if you rely on stealth to win your games for you then you're going to lose and that is how it should be. Stealth is a tactical advantage but it is now no longer the only deciding factor in the game!

[Yoda] You must unlearn what you have learned! [/Yoda]

 

[katadder]

generally minbari will be outnumbered by fighters, and if they not then the fighters are usually of equal quality anyway. starfurys usually outnumber nials by a hell of alot.
at raid level games as most people play 5pt raids it seems the big minbari guns are not our there unless the occasional veshatan or tinashi comes into play lowering you numbers further. most people at this point if going to use a battle level ship use the morshin for command and fleet carrier bonus's plus fighters.

 

[H]

generally minbari will be outnumbered by fighters, and if they not then the fighters are usually of equal quality anyway. starfurys usually outnumber nials by a hell of alot.
at raid level games as most people play 5pt raids it seems the big minbari guns are not our there unless the occasional veshatan or tinashi comes into play lowering you numbers further. most people at this point if going to use a battle level ship use the morshin for command and fleet carrier bonus's plus fighters.

I think EA outnumber them. The Drakh have no fighters, the Brakir only have 2 ships that carry fighters, the abbai have one small carrier, the drazi, um, i dunno, but I don't recall a carrier, not many fighters, the Narn, forget fighters, E-Mines rule, the Dilgar one huge carrier, not many other ships carry fighters. Centauri, have a fair few fighters kudos to them. in a straight up fight, only the EA can outnumber them with fighters usually, unless carriers com into play, and most carriers really, are a bit pap in numbers.
I think the issue is a lot of people play EA, sot hey think the minbari will struggle. IN reality the Minbari can often match fighter numbers against any other race , and with the excelent nial they down the enemy long before they get close in and personal.

 

[Locutus9956]

Minbari are generally outnumbered by furies about 3:1 if the EA go particularly fighter heavy (and way way less if you take a Morshin). Say for example the EA take 2 Novas, an Omega and 2 Oracles. Thats 12 fighters (or possibly 14 I cant remember if Oracles carry furies).

The Minbari take say, a Tinashi, a Morshin, and a Leshath. There is only 1 ship in the EA FLEET that can engage effectively over 15" and you have 9 flights of Nials. Do the maths. The EA CAN get more fighters sure but only by sacrificing a hell of alot of firepower in their actual fleet (thats an example by the way I wouldnt actually recommend an Omega but it has long ranged firepower)

And people see to forget that the Minbari can take Tishats instead of Nials if they want and theyre even BETTER dogfighters.....

And irrespective of all this no amount of 'but what if you take this and they take that, then they're screwed' theorising will change the fact that the Minbari are NOT weak. Just because it is no longer possible to win a game where your opponent plays better and selects a better fleet due to luck on stealth doesnt make the fleet bad it means its BALANCED as opposed to BROKEN :shock:

What a terrible state of affairs! :shock:

 

[Alexb83]

In terms of out ranging minbari - excuse you what?

You don't get a weapon with more than 18 inch range until Raid level (and then on one ship only). It has 20 inch range and 2AD. At battle level you can get up to 4AD at 25 inches. At war level, you can get 30 or 36 inches.

EA have 30 inch weapons at Battle level, Narn have 20 and 30 inch weapons down at Skirmish, Centauri have 20 inches at Skirmish and match Minbari up to War level, 35.

The simple fact of the matter is, Minbari ships, without stealth, looking at their peers, almost unilaterally have fewer AD and are underhulled and have fewer hitpoints without the benefits of interceptors, GEG etc.

It's not about being able to 'win a game where your opponent plays better and selects a better fleet' - it's about being able to win a game where you choose a good fleet and play well, regardless of how they play - with the primary defense of your ships significantly reduced, this is a big problem. What would the Abbai or EA do if their Interceptors suddenly only worked on a 5+ every turn, against each ship that was shooting at them?

 

[Wulf Corbett]

What would the Abbai or EA do if their Interceptors suddenly only worked on a 5+ every turn, against each ship that was shooting at them?

I think you'll find that most interceptors work on a 6+ after a few shots every turn, actually.

Still, some people will never feel happy without a good whine, so whine on.

Wulf

 

[H]

In terms of out ranging minbari - excuse you what?

You don't get a weapon with more than 18 inch range until Raid level (and then on one ship only). It has 20 inch range and 2AD. At battle level you can get up to 4AD at 25 inches. At war level, you can get 30 or 36 inches.

EA have 30 inch weapons at Battle level, Narn have 20 and 30 inch weapons down at Skirmish, Centauri have 20 inches at Skirmish and match Minbari up to War level, 35.

The simple fact of the matter is, Minbari ships, without stealth, looking at their peers, almost unilaterally have fewer AD and are underhulled and have fewer hitpoints without the benefits of interceptors, GEG etc.

It's not about being able to 'win a game where your opponent plays better and selects a better fleet' - it's about being able to win a game where you choose a good fleet and play well, regardless of how they play - with the primary defense of your ships significantly reduced, this is a big problem. What would the Abbai or EA do if their Interceptors suddenly only worked on a 5+ every turn, against each ship that was shooting at them?

A Narn skirmish ship with 30" range, crap, I missed that, something must have been re=stated. Ka'Toc, Ka'Tan 20", G'Karith used to be 20" never use em, Thentus 18" i think, scout certainly not 30".

 

[Locutus9956]

Asside from a couple of deditacated support ships Minbari still outrange their opponents generally speaking. And until you get to raid level Minbari dont really HAVE any ships....

And yes your abosolutely right without their stealth Minbari ships ARE inferior to most other races ships but the whole point is that they DO HAVE STEALTH!!!!!

Just because its not ludicrously potent like it used to be doesnt mean it doesnt exist! Reducing your opponents stealth is hardly that easy anyway! Two flights of fighters must get within range and perform the special order so thats 1 4+ roll and then you need a scout lock which is ANOTHER 4+ roll and then you need to get within 8" which considering most Minbari ships are actually pretty fast and maneuverable isnt THAT easy if youre careful.

Now youve got a 50% chance to fail BOTH those rolls and in the case of the fighters theyre almost certainly dead next turn from fusion beams so will only get once chance at it. And if you turn your main guns on most scouts they WILL evaporate.

The point is you cant just charge headfirst into the enemy and expect to win! Too many people rush to blame their fleet list or their oppents list in this game (and in others two but ACTA has been a tad notorious for this) I find. If you're losing game after game after game then it might be worth considering that maybe, just maybe, you should try some different tactical approaches before whining that your fleet is underpowered. For that matter have you even tried them against another fleet? Using a fleet list against another list from the same race is rarely a good way to gauge their relative strenghts....

 

[Burger]

you need to get within 8" which considering most Minbari ships are actually pretty fast and maneuverable isnt THAT easy if youre careful.

I don't know if the people I play are better than average or what, but they find it VERY easy to get within 8". They almost always out-initiative me, so my manouverability is irrelevant. 8" is a pretty big circle to get into, in fact its 1/3 the width of the board.