Anti-glorantha rant to moongose.
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Adept said:
Well, we did get a constructive debate about it - especially about art in the books, how to attract more players and RQ2 support of settings. So no, the thread is not just about trolling - and even though the titel says "rant" I believe even the original post had some points.
- Dan
Vile
Banded Mongoose
And you can hardly expect someone to become familiar with a setting if it turns them off. This thread raised some interesting theories about what does and doesn't make a setting attractive at first glance (that's all we're going to get in the way of market research as far sa RPGs are concerned).
languagegeek
Mongoose
Exubae said:
- Cults are a way that characters get magic, advance in society, learn skills, understand the universe, etc. Especially for spells and skills, cults are a major part of the RQ mechanics.
- The three cults in the rulebook are not sufficient for actual play - it is up to the GM and players to come up with their own cults. But those three cults are not enough for me to have a half-decent idea of how to build my own cults.
- I have to buy Cults of Glorantha to have any clue on what to do for cults. So CoG is a core rulebook that is very much setting specific.
The equivalent would be if there were only 3 monsters in the rulebook, and the only other source for monsters was Monsters of Glorantha. If heroquesting (which I think is great) and all that is too Glorantha-esque, then there should be something like "Factions, Guilds & Cults" for MRQII that can bring in the cult mechanic without the cult flavour.
cthulhudarren
Mongoose
PS Since this thread started, I've dug into Glorantha a bit. I've warmed up to it, honestly. I still don't want to run it though, I prefer a more naturalist cosmology.
But the way magic, cults, and myths work is MONEY. Definitely a 'take-away' for my own more vanilla game-world. No more 'gain a level, you get more spells'. Now there is role-play.
I want to take the 'every myth is correct' approach, but I'm not sure of the implications. If I have historical pantheons, like Greek, Norse, Celtic, etc, is is possible that they are all 'correct'?
I can also take the God-Learners with me to into my own world.
But the way magic, cults, and myths work is MONEY. Definitely a 'take-away' for my own more vanilla game-world. No more 'gain a level, you get more spells'. Now there is role-play.
I want to take the 'every myth is correct' approach, but I'm not sure of the implications. If I have historical pantheons, like Greek, Norse, Celtic, etc, is is possible that they are all 'correct'?
I can also take the God-Learners with me to into my own world.
Simulacrum
Mongoose
cthulhudarren said:
If you are taking a historical line, you get a mixture between "their story contradicts ours, so cannot be true", or "so who can tell which is true?" and "they have another story about this guy we can add to ours"
Some gods get identified and conflated as aspects or versions of one another, others are seen to be unique and different, and can be adopted or added to the pantheon. Factual anomolies are obvious, where more than one place claims to have the bones/tomb/artefact/lair of some hero, god or monster. These often relate to straight nationalistic competition.
The kicker is in Greek and Roman religion myth is not terribly important. You can be religious while disbelieving the stories, and the reverse is true. All shades of belief or disbelief are catered for. What is important is what you *do* - ritual rather than myth or belief is the key element.
languagegeek
Mongoose
cthulhudarren said:
I agree. My first impression with the setting was very mixed. The cults/heroquesting aspect of the world is what pulled RuneQuest off the store shelf into my hands in the first place. On the other hand, for reasons we've all talked about here, I didn't like the feel of the place. So I started building my own world instead (much more fun anyway).
Then, I wandered around this forum, read through the Glorantha books I ended up buying anyway - that's how much I respect the authors, I bought setting books I had no intention of using because I suspected there'd be some great stuff in there. Now what I find is that I wanna bring something like the God Learners into my world, I can take a good chunk of the cults in as well with a few name (and other specific) changes. I want the players to have the chance to walk into the cults that defined their society, most of my planned adventures are based off of real-world mythology. I want the world to be culturally complex and morality to be vague - or at least relative.
Glorantha seems to be a setting custom built to my tastes. I have to wonder, what put me off? Why didn't I fall in love with Glorantha right off the bat? I should be your best customer! I'm glad I that I stuck with it, and my earlier animosity has disappeared and I'm warming to it as well.
Your problem there is not so much myths as cosmologies. You can handwave the myths by giving the gods local spheres of influence, or by a number of other methods. The problem is that the mythical worldview of, say, the Greeks and the Egyptians isnt consistent (you may notice that for all the "all myths are true" theme of Glorantha, the cosmology is universal. All cultures have access to otherworlds, Heroquest, know about the Great Compromise etc).
The problem is that, say the Egyptian cosmology with the sunboat, the Hours of Night, the scales and so on doesn't fit too well with Nifleheim and Valhalla. Your best options may be to either associate cultures with similar cosmologies to particular styles of magic and split your otherworlds (though you may need an explanation for the existence of multiple otherworlds) or to localise afterlives in the pantheon's respective divine realms. The problem with the former is that you are going to run out of magic styles before you run out of pantheons, and the problem with the second is that if all these pantheons really do exist in parallel its odd they never interact in the myths.
I'd go with the first one. You do have the advantage that the Egyptian cosmology is very unusual in so much info having survived, so you can wedge a lot of them together claiming later corruption for the things that don't fit.
On the other hand, if you are running a lower powered campaign, and you do not anticipate having the characters actually visiting the other worlds much, you could just declare the whole question a Canonical Area of Doubt and Uncertainty, run the world with all myths true and just smile mysteriously when your players ask how it all works.
Languagegeek wrote:
As good as the core-book is I agree the cults section could have done with a lot more. Ideally a semi-complete pantheon would have been nice 5 or 6 examples of each magic system.
I'm surprised mongoose haven't exploited this hole in the core book with a cults manual. A tool kit for producing pantheons and how cults fit into society would be a nice little money spinner...
They just need to throw together a couple of pantheons.
... The only issue with a stand alone book wholly dedicated to cults is that it takes the cult out of context of the culture from which it is drawn.
As good as the core-book is I agree the cults section could have done with a lot more. Ideally a semi-complete pantheon would have been nice 5 or 6 examples of each magic system.
I'm surprised mongoose haven't exploited this hole in the core book with a cults manual. A tool kit for producing pantheons and how cults fit into society would be a nice little money spinner...
They just need to throw together a couple of pantheons.
... The only issue with a stand alone book wholly dedicated to cults is that it takes the cult out of context of the culture from which it is drawn.
languagegeek
Mongoose
Exubae said:
I think Cults of Glorantha actually works well in this sense. A lot of the cults in that book are generic enough that I can put my own names into the description and it's good to go. What I'm really looking for is mechanics: what spells to use, what skills, how much resonance value should go on a given myth, and so forth... It's my job as world-builder to come up with my own stories. What I needed (and got) were samples of how to make my own cults. However, GMs not playing a Glorantha campaign may shy away from purchasing "Cults", which is a shame.
I'm not so worried about the culture-context side of things, that is for settings/sourcebooks and GMs. I'm going to use the "Generic Cults" thread in this forum as a template, and pile on my own ideas of culture and history. Because cults are part of the core mechanic, I think there should have been at least as much space dedicated to cults as monsters in the rulebook.
I like the idea of the "generic cults", an NPC gallery, create-your-own-monster, a whack of spirits, templates and more templates etc. going into a GM's guide, be it in book form or a website. Something that I can reference in a pinch when the party takes a surprising course of action.
PrinceYyrkoon
Mongoose
RosenMcStern said:
Ghah.
I'm sorry this is slightly off topic but I have to reply to this!
The Mongol stirrup was the single-most important technological advance in world history up to that point. If you doubt this then try thrusting a sharp stick from the back of a horse without stirrups. The Mongols were successful because they were people in possession of the most advanced piece of technological hardware in existence not because they got lucky and everyone else had an off-day.
Ghah.
Here we get involved in the definition of "advanced". Useful, I'll grant you. Devastatingly effective, yes. But advanced? I'm not so sure. Is it more than just a few strips of leather sewn together? Is it really more advanced than chain mail armour or folded steel?PrinceYyrkoon said:
I don't think that Cerebro is a troll at all. I think he is the future of RQ if it wants to expand and be the dominant fantasy system it has the potential to be. I, personally think that Glorantha is great.
But I grew up with it. RQ must be able to connect with the worlds that others grew up with if it wants to be relevant. The system is gorgeous, and I think the fact that players like Cerebro see it's value is a testament to the system, not a criticism of Glorantha.
If you love Glorantha, you love Glorantha. No body is going to be able to talk you out of it. There is no need to defend it. You can certainly explain why you love it, but allow others to continue to love the worlds they have grown up playing in.
I think understanding Glorantha allows for a deeper level of understanding around the system, but I don't think it's necessary. I personally think that the new blood and new ideas are a breath of fresh air. Good ideas are good ideas. Glorantha has a bunch, and I would encourage folks to take a close look at it and use what they like in their settings.
Ultimately, it's your game.
But I grew up with it. RQ must be able to connect with the worlds that others grew up with if it wants to be relevant. The system is gorgeous, and I think the fact that players like Cerebro see it's value is a testament to the system, not a criticism of Glorantha.
If you love Glorantha, you love Glorantha. No body is going to be able to talk you out of it. There is no need to defend it. You can certainly explain why you love it, but allow others to continue to love the worlds they have grown up playing in.
I think understanding Glorantha allows for a deeper level of understanding around the system, but I don't think it's necessary. I personally think that the new blood and new ideas are a breath of fresh air. Good ideas are good ideas. Glorantha has a bunch, and I would encourage folks to take a close look at it and use what they like in their settings.
Ultimately, it's your game.
Psuedosirus
Mongoose
Adept said:
Not really a proper argument, now is it?
I think he's mistaking advanced and ground-breakingPhilHibbs said:
Now, their bows on the other hand were extremely advanced. They had to lie for two years in complete darkness and without moisture, to allow it to set. As the wood in the bow dries it wants to shrink, the horn on the other hand wants to expand. These to things working against it each other create a magnificent effect and a very powerful bow...
It is wonder a person ever perfected the method when it takes two years in darkness and dryness in a country where the most permanent construction is a yurth and the winters are horrible.
Again, I digress.
- Dan
Just for clarity, I'm not bashing Adept. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
Mine just happens to be the right one
But I can see how it is frustrating to a lot of Gloranthaphiles when people attempt to rip Glorantha without even trying to understand it first. So, I can see how that can make some folks get their back up.
But I think the important thing to note is that everyone is on the same side here. Everyone loves the system, and unless person A plays in the same game as person B, chances are high that even if they play in totally different settings, there is probably something of worth to be learned or shared from the others gaming experience.
At the very least, I think the way people are able to convert RQ to meet the needs of their particular game is, itself, inspiring.
But maybe I'm an optimist, and there should be, like, an RQ war of the worlds!
:twisted:
Or maybe everyone should compare and see who has the biggest mouse. :roll:
For the record, my mouse is HUGE. Wait...that didn't come out right...oh, bugger, I did it again...ah, forget it! :roll:
Mine just happens to be the right one
But I can see how it is frustrating to a lot of Gloranthaphiles when people attempt to rip Glorantha without even trying to understand it first. So, I can see how that can make some folks get their back up.
But I think the important thing to note is that everyone is on the same side here. Everyone loves the system, and unless person A plays in the same game as person B, chances are high that even if they play in totally different settings, there is probably something of worth to be learned or shared from the others gaming experience.
At the very least, I think the way people are able to convert RQ to meet the needs of their particular game is, itself, inspiring.
But maybe I'm an optimist, and there should be, like, an RQ war of the worlds!
:twisted:
Or maybe everyone should compare and see who has the biggest mouse. :roll:
For the record, my mouse is HUGE. Wait...that didn't come out right...oh, bugger, I did it again...ah, forget it! :roll:
Your always going to get those kind of posters on any forum. Some folks define RQ as Glorantha, they're going to make comments based on that viewpoint.
I used to regularly get told on the OGL Conan forum that the RQ system can't do Conan! How stupid is that? But, that's just the d20 Conan fans trying to protect their system/setting.
I tried to give the MRQ Glorantha a quick read, The opening was something about Glorantha is an island floating in a river or some-such. No, I want a spherical world orbiting a sun. These kind of foo-foo worlds can be cool, but not core.
I used to regularly get told on the OGL Conan forum that the RQ system can't do Conan! How stupid is that? But, that's just the d20 Conan fans trying to protect their system/setting.
I tried to give the MRQ Glorantha a quick read, The opening was something about Glorantha is an island floating in a river or some-such. No, I want a spherical world orbiting a sun. These kind of foo-foo worlds can be cool, but not core.
